Getting all dirt from pedals

Jet-Jaguar

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I don't known that much about amps, really.  I've been playing through software modelers and what I've learned has mostly come from reading "Great Guitar Tone with IK Multimedia Amplitube: The Official Guide" which actually goes over a lot of the basics of how effects, pre-amps, power tubes, cabinets, and microphones come together for the sound you hear on albums. The thing I've got from listening to amps in stores is that no amp does it all, and especially not at all volumes.

Recently, I was watching a video for Catlinbread's RAH pedal, which makes your guitar sounds like it's going through the same type of Hiwatt amp that Jimmy Page played live at the Royal Albert Hall.  And it got me to thinking, Amps are much more expensive than pedals, so does anyone really use pedals for all the dirt, and then run things through an extremely clean amp?  Is such a thing doable?
 
Totally doable.  I ran a 1968 Fender Bassman head/cab clean with pedals for dirt for over a year.  It sounded great with my Xotic AC and RC Booster, Catalinbread WIIO and MI Audio Crunchbox.  Getting that puppy into the happy zone (edge of breakup) took more volume than any of the places we played could handle.  I used the RC Booster to get me there, and the AC Booster to push me over.  The WIIO and Crunchbox were like a Hiwatt and Marshall in a box: instant RAWK!!!  The only reason I got rid of it was because it was no fun to haul.
 
When I'm recording I use small vintage tweed amps turned up to 12 for distortion.

Live I run all vintage Fenders and my preference is to run directly into the amp with natural distortion but in the situation I play in I have to have varying degrees of distortion so I use several different pedals. I'm currently using an EP Booster, Fuzzy Drive, Gtr Wrks Flat 5, Ibanez TS9, 2 different Fulltone Fulldrives and am adding a Eric Johnson signature Fuzz Face. That really covers a lot of sonic landscape but nothing beats a cranked amp singing away at high volume!

 
Quite possible. Now my personal experience with pedals is very limited (I use my Mustang for effects atm), but I can use this as a chance to post some floyd a couple of examples. My knowledge of many well known groups rigs is also near non-existent, so bear with me.

First off, vintage hiwatts are usually very clean (other than a couple of modified models for Townshend and Page), the new ones, well they're another story. You can get some nice crunch with them, but they're already really loud by then. (Good places for Hiwatts are: http://hiwatt.org/ and http://www.vintagehiwattconvention.com/forum/) Any good clean amp would do (a number of fenders also come to mind).

Gilmour's rig is one I do know. I don't like posting such studio-ed examples but PULSE gives a couple of different distortions a whirl so... It'll have to do. I've tried to grab so-called "uncut" versions for some improvement. (*Off Topic*: I still can't believe that they cut part of the Comfortably Numb solo out of the dvd.) This is all from the same rig and obviously not such a huge setup would be required.

Clean (Coming Back to Life)
http://youtu.be/n45qG-p9lmY

Light Drive - Boss CS-2 and MXR DynaComp or Chandler Tube Driver (Shine On You Crazy Diamond)
http://youtu.be/AjDE3fZcdjg

Dist. 1 - Sovtek Big Muff (Comfortably Numb)
http://youtu.be/xZ748FMF8nk

Dist. 2 - Proco Rat (What Do You Want From Me)
http://youtu.be/qTUnXelvpdk

More info on each song's use of effects can be found here: http://goo.gl/JIqQg

On the other hand, if you had a really nice distortion from your preamp, you could have a couple of volume selectors via stomp, but I'm not too sure that that is what you're after.

Now taking this from a guy with 22 posts... Yeah, I get your point, but take what you will.

(Now hopefully I haven't hit a character limit...)
 
I run my amp pretty and run my effects for overdrives and such.

AC Booster is my secret weapon, I always have it running, very dynamic and it lets the amp and guitars character come through, I can't recommend it enough.

Another option is running the amp on the edge of breakup so it has some dynamic attack you can use to your advantage, and then push it over with a booster if you need more oomph.

It's all in the touch!  If you have a responsive amp, and responsive pedals, then it's up to you to provide the touch to give it great tone.
 
Tonar8353 said:
When I'm recording I use small vintage tweed amps turned up to 12 for distortion.

Live I run all vintage Fenders and my preference is to run directly into the amp with natural distortion...

The soundmen must hate you Greg... Do you play in big stages? I have worked as a stage crew and even in a stadium of 65.000 people the Twin Reverb was on 5, totally clean with pedals for dirt. Unless you are talking about the Champ and the Princeton I personally can't distort any other Fender amp. I have no experience with Tweeds, Browns or Blonds though. Just Blackfaces & Silverfaces.

Back in the 90's when I was playing with lots of gain I used to think pedals are for kids & beginners, I wanted high gain only from the preamp of a big head. Now I have two old Fender heads for clean (awesome clean sound) and two pedals for gain & high gain. The sound I'm getting is very good and the gain is very controllable.

Jet-Jaguar said:
...Recently, I was watching a video for Catlinbread's RAH pedal, which makes your guitar sounds like it's going through the same type of Hiwatt amp that Jimmy Page played live at the Royal Albert Hall.  And it got me to thinking, Amps are much more expensive than pedals, so does anyone really use pedals for all the dirt, and then run things through an extremely clean amp?  Is such a thing doable?

Amps are more expensive than pedals but unless you have a good amp, good cab & speakers no pedal will sound good. A clean amp is the platform of your pedals so you must take the best from your amp in the first place, then have a pedal for a good dirt sound. Luckily you can find Silverface Fenders for way under $1000 if you want a totally clean amp and it's the best time to buy pedals as there are too many companies producing great pedals.
 
Another problem to add too that is that some pedals sound different depending on the amp. Muffs for example seem to only like certain amps, or they start murdering your sound.
 
The soundmen must hate you Greg...
  :laughing3: :laughing3:

Actually we isolate my amp off the stage so the only stage volume that is being heard is out of my monitor.  I do have the Leslie on stage but it is not always engage and not up real loud. They have been bugging me to go to in-ear monitors but I'm holding out.

When you say distortion you are correct that tweed amps are the ones that really compress. I think of that kind of distortion along the lines of Billy Gibbons or Neil Young's distortion. High gain tone is not a Vintage Fender amp's forte unless you add pedals into the chain.

When I think of a Blackface breaking up I think of someone like Ted Nugent with a Twin cranking.  The thing is you can get a Blackface amp to scream at lower volumes if you turn up the volume all the way and the tone knobs all off. The tubes are getting driven full out and then you add in the tone knobs as needed to get the sound you want and the volume is less devastating. 

 
Tempest said:
Another option is running the amp on the edge of breakup so it has some dynamic attack you can use to your advantage, and then push it over with a booster if you need more oomph.

It's all in the touch!  If you have a responsive amp, and responsive pedals, then it's up to you to provide the touch to give it great tone.

This is where it's at and the reason why we love tubes -

I tend to select tube amps with a pristine clean channel (the more fendery the better) and liquid lead channel.  I use various dirt boxes for crunch tones if I'm not playing at a volume that allows me to roll back my guitar volume for crunch tones. 

Every three channel amp I've owned - Boogie MKIV/V...various Peaveys..have an inherent compromise built in around the crunch channel.  I have found that if I have a great clean tone, I can add stomp boxes to season to taste. If you have a lousy clean tone, nothing can fix that.

 
For more classic-oriented lead playing, you can certainly do with just pedals. This is what I do whenever I play classic rock or U2-style alt. However, a big metal rhythm is very hard to achieve with pedals. There are some that do a decent job but they don't have the smack of a real amp. In my experience, I can get pedals to sound great but when I go back to a real amp, I can't help but like the amp more. It's a bigger sound and hard to get over. That being said, I'd never play without dirt pedals to boost the clean or crunch or to provide extra compression for solos UNLESS I was fronting the band. Then the simplicity of a footswitch with two awesome, hassle-free tones that get the right compression at a wider range of volume is nice when you're trying to sing. Also, as a vocalist playing guitar you're more likely to be playing rhythm anyway so focusing on that end makes more sense.

If you're playing classic rock or the U2/modern worship style you're gonna be ok with pedals. If you want a bigger rhythm punch, I'd advocate grabbing an amp with a good grit channel. YMMV of course.
 
Tonar8353 said:
When I think of a Blackface breaking up I think of someone like Ted Nugent with a Twin cranking.  The thing is you can get a Blackface amp to scream at lower volumes if you turn up the volume all the way and the tone knobs all off. The tubes are getting driven full out and then you add in the tone knobs as needed to get the sound you want and the volume is less devastating.
See, that's something I would wouldn't have thought of. I'm glad I started this thread.

fdesalvo said:
Tempest said:
Another option is running the amp on the edge of breakup so it has some dynamic attack you can use to your advantage, and then push it over with a booster if you need more oomph.

It's all in the touch!  If you have a responsive amp, and responsive pedals, then it's up to you to provide the touch to give it great tone.

This is where it's at and the reason why we love tubes -

I tend to select tube amps with a pristine clean channel (the more fendery the better) and liquid lead channel.  I use various dirt boxes for crunch tones if I'm not playing at a volume that allows me to roll back my guitar volume for crunch tones. 

Every three channel amp I've owned - Boogie MKIV/V...various Peaveys..have an inherent compromise built in around the crunch channel.  I have found that if I have a great clean tone, I can add stomp boxes to season to taste. If you have a lousy clean tone, nothing can fix that.

So are you saying that those amps had good cleans, but compromised crunch, or the other way around?
 
I think all good amps are decendants off the ole Fender bassman amp, clean and powerfull

Here's a bit of trivia, Fender didn't design that original bassman amp, the Tube company designed the bassman circuit for fender so fender would buy tubes. Theres more to the story, but that's the jist of it.
 
Alfang said:
I think all good amps are decendants off the ole Fender bassman amp, clean and powerfull

Here's a bit of trivia, Fender didn't design that original bassman amp, the Tube company designed the bassman circuit for fender so fender would buy tubes. Theres more to the story, but that's the jist of it.

The "Tube company" was RCA, and they didn't design the Bassman to force Fender's hand, it was just a reference design in their engineering handbook that Leo copied. You're right about the motivation - they came up with the design so companies would have an easier time using their tubes - but it wasn't directed at Fender. Anybody that made an amplifier was foolish to disregard the standard; they'd otherwise have to spend a lot of money on R&D time and material.

It's common practice. For instance, most video card makers don't design their own PC boards. They use nVidia's or ATI's reference designs. All the work is already done. They just put on a fancy fan or cooling system and maybe some graphics packaging and call it a love story. Many producers of critical parts do the same thing. A lot of stuff is just the same repackaged parts aimed at some demographic. How many different cell phones are out there? But, there are probably only 2 or 3 different chips used in all of them. Microwaves, TVs, cars - they all have a lot more in common than is generally known.
 
Back in the 80's I had a handful of different combo amps at different times, ie; a couple of Yamaha's, Crate, Peavey.  I always used a DOD FX56 American Metal pedal & used the amps clean channel.  I really liked the pedal a lot, but when I went rack with the ADA MP1, that ended that.  With modern amps certainly capable of high gain, I much more prefer the interaction between player/guitar/amp/pickups, etc...

Of the modern Disto pedals, I can't stand all of the "Metal" once, they just sound like bees in a boxcar. 
I like the organic character of the BOSS Blues Driver, and the higher gain side of things has the Power Stack, which sounds nice if you back off the gain.  Other than that, the newer Bogner Uberschaal pedal is the only one of interest, but I've already got that tone dialed in on my POD XT Live and in POD Farm after extensive tweaking of the parameters in both recording and live applications, and I'm quite pleased with it.
 
I generally go for a boost pedal rather than a distortion box.  If I am playing at home by myself, it is fun to turn everything to 11.  But with others, I turn the mids up more, and back off of the gain a ways for the dirty sound.  Generally there is another guitar so those tweaks allow me to hear myself, and it makes the individual notes not blur together so much in the overall mix.

However, to answer the original question, yes that works.  So much so that an Axe FX through a Fryette 2/90/2 is some peoples version of nirvana.
Patrick

 
It's all in the touch!  If you have a responsive amp, and responsive pedals, then it's up to you to provide the touch to give it great tone.
[/quote]

:guitaristgif:  Agree.  Which is why when I got a quality amp, guitar, and pickups, I realized how much time I need in the fabled woodshed.
 
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