FRFR monitor

[swarfrat]

Ok all you 11R/AxeFx guys. What are you playing through and what are your thoughts ob it?

If I can get something practical I might dump all my amps. Basically I need something for guitar, bass, and possibly a drum monitor at some point. I'm currenyly playing acoustic drums, it'll be a while before I'm playing out but I have mesh heada and plastic cymbals at the moment, and the thought of electrification has crossed my mind. I don't need gobs and gobs of headroom just because they're drums.. if I need to get loud I can put regular heads back on and bring my cymbals back out.

I'm considering sticking a 1U class D power amp and my 11R in a 3U rack and calling that a day.  I was looking at maybr making something based on an Eminence Beta-12CX.  Except I already have a homebuilt Eminence private label 15 that's good for 66-2khz, 100db 1w/1m and 150w in a 1.7ft^3 box.I may just stick a horn that can crossover around 1.2khz on that one.

Were it not for bass and drums, I might be tempted to find something really compact that'll get 100 Hz and can be up on a stand for guitar monitor.  Anyone have somethinf you've bought or built for monitoring?

 

[swarfrat]

Or screw all that and get a Behringer F1320D for yhe price of a power amp.

 

[Cagey]

I use a pair of active Atomic CLR wedges up on sticks, but for what they cost you could have 8 of those Behringer units so I don't know if that's an attractive option for you. Nothing sounds better, if that matters.

Prior to the CLRs, discerning modellers were in love with the RCF NX 12-SMA active monitors. Very nice parts, albeit a bit pricey, and superceded by the CLRs.

Along with CLRs, many modellers like the QSC's K12 actives. Very good sound, but again, you could have 6 of those Behringer units to a pair of these, cost-wise.

Of course, JBL, EV, Matrix, Mission all make active monitors that are purportedly good enough to run modellers through. Pricing is competitive between all of them, but most of them are 2nd or 3rd choices after the first couple I mentioned.

For what those Behringer units cost, you could try one just for the fun of it. Even if it doesn't work out for what you want to do, it's not likely to go to waste. A general-purpose monitor can always find a home somewhere.

 

[SustainerPlayer]

As I wrote in your other thread you really should try out the Yamaha DXR10. Packs a lot of punch as a guitar monitor. I haven't tried the 12 or 15 which would probably be better for bass. But I have heard that the bigger models does not deliver the same punch for guitar. But the DXR10 sound fantastic and is not that heavy. Very good for a carry yourself live setup.

We used that monitor in some moddeler shoot outs where we tested out Line 6 Pod500X, Boss GT-100, Eleven Rack, Axe FX II and later with a Kemper and a Two Notes Torpedo C.A.B.

 

[swarfrat]

Currently considering the Behringer B115D. Looks like it'll cover the BG and drum side without breaking the back or the bank.

 

[Cagey]

I've always had good luck with Behringer gear. They get a bad rap because the stuff doesn't cost enough, so it's considered "cheap" as in "flimsy". I think they just have a different business model. They sell at cost plus rather than market price, which can be wildly different numbers. Since it's made in China, it's got that stink on it, too. Thing is, most gear is made in China these days, and I don't care how much a mixer costs, you're not allowed to let Bubba drive a forklift into it and expect it to survive.

 

[stratamania]

I've mentioned this before on the Fractal Forum a couple of years ago. What are you going to use them for ?

The models Cagey mentioned are very good. The Matrix are also good.

BUT... Do you really need them ? probably yes if playing out but if you are just in a home studio / practice situation a set of Studio Monitors will do a good job. I have Yamaha HS8s and they have some newer ones now in different sizes. It'll also save you some cash. You can also add a sub woofer to them if you want really low response.

 

[swarfrat]

I'm currently playing just at home. I have goals to start playing out in the next year. I do have a set of Alesis M1 Mk2 active monitors but they both have dead PSU's (well known issue which Alesis refuses to accept responsibility for. Google Alesis M1 Mk2 capacitor C8) I have a plan to rescue them by sticking a crossover in and passivating them. 

But what I'm wanting is something that can stand in for a guitar/bass combo when jamming with other players. I'm seriously thinking about selling my Carvin X-60C and PB200. An active wedge + 11R would give me something that works for electric guitar/bass/acoustic guitar.  I just sold my Yamaha PB-1 tonight, so once I get the funds from that, it'll just about cover the Behringer F1220D.

 

[Cagey]

I'm thinking you'll be fairly pleased with the F1220D for electric/acoustic guitar, but it may be a little underpowered for bass. 250 solid state watts split between high/low drivers isn't as much as it sounds like. For the basement/bedroom it's probably way more than enough but most of the "pro" powered monitors out there are 500W+, some as high as 1000W. It's not so much for loudness as it is for fidelity.

 

[swarfrat]

Hmm. That sorta makes DIY attractive again. The 15 is a twin for Eminence Delta Pro 15. That gives 3db just for the 2nd driver, or 103db 1w/1m and 400w.  I can make it a 215 w horn for about 150, and 400w into 4 ohms isnt hard to come by or very costly. Its small for a 215, but still bigger than a wedge.

 

[Cagey]

The Eminence Delta Pro speakers are some damn nice units. I've used them in the past in DIY cabs and been very pleased. They're essentially EVMs at ~1/2 price.

I don't know that I'd want to use 15s in a cab I intended to play guitar through, though. At least, not unless I did a 3-way. You can do bass well out of 12s, but it's tougher to do guitar well out of 15s. Too much mass, so your crossover point is in a funny place for a 2 way.

But, stranger things have happened. The old Fender Bassmans with 15s could do wonderful things for a guitar. Of course, they weren't being driven by a modeller, so it's apples and oranges, but still.

 

[swarfrat]

On the forums (which I can't join because nobody is approving new accounts) I've seen people saying stuff like "you gotta run it through a tube power amp and a guitar cab". But at that point you no longer have a modeller and just have a fancy stomp box. I specifically do NOT want to create somethjng I have to mic to record or send to FOH. The whole point of FRFR is to reproduce anything so long as you have the bandwidth and power.

In this case, I already have one of the 15's.  Perhaps I shouls go back to original plan, which was 11R + power amp, and pick the cabinet you wish to lug. If its a bass amp, that 15 I have needs no horn.2 of em would do wonderfully for backline any day.  It also means the guitar cab can be much smaller and lighter (Eminence Beta-10CX). 10CX will go down to 60 Hz in a ported box. 100 in a very compact sealed box.

 

[Cagey]

Well, an 11R + power amp is a pretty versatile thing. Get a Carvin DCM1000L and you've got a 1000W to play with and it only weighs 9lbs. Drive anything with that and have room to spare. Along with the 11R and a 4 space rack, you're probably only looking at 22lbs all up. Grab a cab to suit the application and you're in good shape.

 

[bagman67]

You could get the DCM3800L and really make some enemies.  3800 watts is probably enough to kill you.  Just for funsies.

 

[SoundAsAnOldEngineer]

I've been using one or two Roland KC-135 keyboard amplifiers as FRFR monitors. They are reasonably portable, solidly built and have so far been reliable. They don't have absolutely flat response and make quite mediocre PA speakers, but they do seem to work for the modelling application. I use this set up for electric guitar, bass and acoustic. A single 12" speaker doesn't provide particulalry impressive extension for bass guitar, but it's enough for what I need. I've rarely needed to use both of the Roland units together, although the two of them can sound amazing with stereo effects.

My assessment is that the KC-135 with 120 W generates similar sound levels to a 20 W valve/tube amplifier like the Fender Deluxe without saturating the KC-135. Unsurprisingly, it can't complete with a full Marshall stack, but then that's not what I need.

Speakers smaller than 12" don't produce the trouser-flapping experience of a traditional speaker cabinet and don't cut it with a guitar modeller.

 

[stratamania]

If you intend to jam with others than yes you would need some sort of amplification. Studio Monitors are great for recording/practice to backing tracks etc.

On using a power amp and guitar cab, that approach is taken by some who want more of an amp in the room approach. The modelling then is used as a preamp and effects only approach. The idea is that the power amp, particularly if it's tube based can add "warmth" to the sound. Obviously a guitar cab then will give the characteristics only of that guitar cab. 

Some have also had good success with a modeller into a Matrix or Carvin power amp or similar and then a traditional cab. That's one approach where of you have a cab already you could get FRFR monitors at a later time.

Then there are the various types of FRFR type solutions, usually but not always monitor like.  Actually take a look at Mission Engineering, he has a rack and set of FRFR traditional cabs. It may not fit your budget but it's worth having a look at the different options.

Alternate approaches.For Home use, as mentioned Studio Monitors / Headphones may take care of most of your immediate needs for current use.

If you were just doing guitar when jamming perhaps a traditional combo amp might work out more effective price wise.  You could even use the 11rack in a 4CM set up I would imagine for more versatility.

There are many approaches but the state of the art solutions Axe FX / Kemper + Atomics, Mission pedals and a Midi controller such as a Liquid Foot or RJM mastermind GT you are looking at a good amount of cash.

So perhaps the Behringer may suit the budget and do a decent job. Practicality and affordability are important elements after all.

 

[mayfly]

Sorry to completely derail this thread, but I wonder if there is a market for tube powered FRFR monitors specifically for the modeling amp crowd.

What do ya think?

 

[SustainerPlayer]

Sorry to completely derail this thread, but I wonder if there is a market for tube powered FRFR monitors specifically for the modeling amp crowd.

What do ya think?

I thought we did this to get away from using tubes?  :icon_scratch: :dontknow:

 

[mayfly]

Sorry to completely derail this thread, but I wonder if there is a market for tube powered FRFR monitors specifically for the modeling amp crowd.

What do ya think?

I thought we did this to get away from using tubes?  :icon_scratch: :dontknow:

Fair enough.

 

[Cagey]

There's a market for damn near anything. It's the size of the market that you have to consider. Tube-based FRFR monitors, I suspect, would be a pretty tiny slice.

Besides, it's already out there in a way. You can buy FRFR monitors without integrated amplifiers and feed them with a tube amp.