Fret wire size

[Bob Hoover Ross]

So I'm ordering a new Warmoth neck for a new guitar, and I'm agonizing over what fret size to choose.
All my other Warmoth experiences (two instruments) were basses...and one of those was fretless. And the other one, to be honest, I'm not sure I'm thrilled with the frets I chose.

But I'm going to pretend my experiences with basses are immaterial to my current concerns. Thing is, I have no idea what size fret wire is on any of my guitars, and I don't have any calipers or tools to measure them. The guitars I own with my favorite necks are by PRS and Ibanez, for whatever that's worth...so I guess if I could get similar frets to those I'd be happy.

I'm probably overthinking this.

In case it matters I'm building a Strat/Tele hybrid, Padouk body & Padouk neck w/ ebony fingerboard. I probably divide my time equally between chordal work and single-note lines, though I'm definitely not a "shredder" and I probably am less concerned with bending than traditional blues/rock guitarists, in case that matters.

tl;dr -  what size frets do you like for guitar?

 

[AcrylicSuperman]

Honestly, fret size should be chosen based upon how you fret. Do you tend to be heavy fingered and press into the fretboard? Use a smaller wire. Are you one of those people who barely touch the strings to the frets or like a more scalloped feel? A jumbo size might be more suitable to you.

I personally tend to dig into the fretboard, so 6230 doesn't throw me out of tune.

 

[Ace Flibble]

Most MIA PRS guitars (not SEs) use 47104 wire by Jescar, identical to Warmoth's 6150. Note that Warmoth's wires differ from Dunlop's official measurements quite a bit. For example, Dunlop's own stated measurements for 6150 are 44x100. Some of the signature models use Jescar 51108 or 57110, for which there are no exact Dunlop equivalents though 6100 and 6000 are both very close respectively; Warmoth's 6100 is actually 6000. I'm afraid I don't know what fretwire any of the SE models use.

Ibanez use a wider variety of fretwire but most of their MIJ models use Dunlop 6100. JEM models use 6105. (Some early JEMs use a Jescar wire, I think 55095 but I may be misremembering.) For other signature models or lower-end guitars, who knows. Again, bear in mind that Warmoth's wires are not quite identical to Dunlop's. Dunlop 6100 is smaller than Warmoth's 6100 and Dunlop's 6105 is narrower but taller than Warmoth's version.

So depending on what model of PRS and Ibanez you have, you may be able to pick out a close equivalent from Warmoth. If you can't be sure what wire your particular model of PRS or Ibanez have then the safest bet for you from Warmoth would be the 6150 as the go-to all-rounder, since that's still the same kind of width that most PRS and Ibanez use and in height shouldn't feel too high nor too low for anyone.

Bear in mind that the feel of fretwire can also be somewhat impacted by scale length, fretboard radius, neck width and action. For example, I have two LPs, one a Gibson and the other an ESP, with slightly different fretwire. At first I tried Jescar 45100 (same as Dunlop's 6150; smaller than Warmoth's 6150) on the Gibson and liked it, so I replaced the ESP's with the same wire. That guitar has a slightly flatter radius though (14" vs Gibson's 12") and is strung with a fractionally heavier strings. (.010-.050 instead of .0095-.048) And on that ESP, with those very minor differences in radius and string, the 45100 wire felt way too low. To balance it out I had to pull that wire and replaced it with 51100 and that then felt like a match to the Gibson, even though technically it became a mismatch. So give some thought to the rest of your guitars' neck specs and how you string them up, because it may be that replicating one of your existing guitars accurately might not result in the right feel for you if the rest of the guitar and what you play on it is different.

FWIW I now use 45100 or 51100 on all 24.75" guitars (Dunlop 6150 and 6120 are close), 47095 on 24" (Dunlop 6170 is their closest), and 51108 (Dunlop's equivalent is the fractionally larger 6100) on anything 25.5" or longer. I also level off my frets so the wire itself is just a hair flatter than the fretboard radius (e.g. 14" frets on a 12" board – Prince did this too, only more extreme around 12" wire on 9.5" boards) which means the actual height of my fretwire is a little lower in the middle than the spec says.
But that's me. I like my necks to be just under an inch thick with no taper, 12" radius fretboard always now, any nut between 1.650" to 1-11/16" (42-43mm), I use strings one or two sets lighter than anyone else does for the same tunings it seems, and I like my action slightly high even though I dig my fingers right down to the wood of the fretboard. Most people who pick up my personal guitars question how I can play on them and why I have them set so "wrong" when I have no trouble setting up guitars for other people exactly as they ask with big strings and low action, etc. Nothing I like in guitars matches what the majority likes. So me liking whatever fretwire likely means other people won't like that fretwire.

 

[Strat Avenger]

6150 for guitar, 6100 for bass.

 

[musicispeace]

I had a lot a thought on this as well when I started playing again and went the partscaster route. I have been consciously working to lighten my touch the past couple of years on guitar to reduce fatigue and increase playing intonation. Here is what I have found personally.

I have both 6150 and 6105 frets. The latter is taller. I have to admit that the 6150 stainless frets I have feel so smooth and its a pleasure to move around the neck. We all have to find our own way in this. If you have a nearby brick and mortar store that has Nash guitars all of his use 6105 frets. Ibanez seem closer to the 6150 experience.

 

[JohnnyHardtail]

For playing solos, bigger is better.  So get the SS6100..    well why not?

If you really think 6100 are too big, the SS6115 is the next best.

 

[Ace Flibble]

Bigger is not better if you press down to the wood and throw every note out of tune—barre chords are a particular bugger for this—or if you like to do a lot of long slides and don't want your fingertips grated off. As OP said, they "divide my time equally between chordal work and single-note lines, though I'm definitely not a "shredder" and I probably am less concerned with bending", so clearly solos aren't their priority.

 

[JohnnyHardtail]

Hi Ace.  I appreciate your comments about big frets.  I just wanted to state my personal preference so obviously its not going to apply to everyone.  In hindsight, I should have made it clear my view was a personal preference instead of stating it as fact.

I'd like ask you a question if its ok.  Do you think the effect of playing chords out of tune is related to string size and action?    It seems to me that if people are playing 8's or 9's they will be more likely to play the chords out of tune.  I'm interested in your experience and opinion.

 

[stratamania]

Playing chords out of tune is more related to inappropriate technique for the instrument one is playing on.

 

[Ace Flibble]

Nah, for chords on guitar whether the chord is in tune or not depends mostly on set-up, string size and fret size. It's not like you can accidentally bending one of the notes while playing a G#m or whatever; you can easily be pushing the strings too far down and causing them to go sharp but sometimes it is necessary to press or grip that close to the wood in order to anchor your hand for far stretches. Prince's Purple Rain is a popular example; there's no way you're playing that Fadd9 without applying a lot of pressure 'cause nobody's fingers are meant to stretch that way lightly. There's no "inappropriate technique" there, it's just the nature and limitations of how the human hand's muscles work. (Prince's guitarist, Wendy Melvoin, apparently gave up even playing the full chord because her hand kept cramping from having to grip with that much force for 12+ minutes each night.)

If you're pushing down that hard on single notes then sure, you probably shouldn't be doing that and you should address your technique, but chords don't always give you that option.

I do definitely notice chords being thrown further out with lighter strings, bigger frets, higher action and shorter scales. The higher the strings are from the wood and the easier it is to push them around, the more they're going to go sharp if you do push them all the way down. If you ever play a 24" guitar with light strings (à la Brian May) you'll quickly notice how horrific it sounds if the action isn't set extremely low. Some people think it's the intonation and mess with the position of the bridge saddles, but really it's the action. A guitar like that will never sound in tune unless the strings are already very close to the frets and you either fret lightly or use such low wire that pressing to the wood makes no difference.
This is likely why Billy Gibbons still has the old Gibson 'fretless wonder' style of tiny fretwire on most of his guitars. He uses .008 or .009 strings depending on tuning and digs in both with his fretting hand and his pick hard, so low frets with low action enable him to abuse the strings without everything going sharp constantly.
This is, really, the argument against fretted instruments as a whole; the most accurate notes can only be made with a fretless instrument. As long as you have frets there is the possibility of pushing a string sharp. The bigger those frets are and the more you have/can push the strings around, the more likely you're going to go out of tune. 'S why as 'fast' and freeing as fretboard scalloping is, you're not going to find many rhythm players opting for it.

Ultimately everyone's hands are different and what everyone plays is different. If your hands and what you play can deal with big frets, light strings and high action without pushing anything sharp, okay, good for you, stick with it. But there's a good reason why most R&B funk strummers and fat-fingered classic jazz players and have stuck to vintage low frets with light strings, while your floaty sweep-picking progressive jazz players and metal shredders complain about intonation and tuning problems with anything less than .013s on a jumbo-fan-fretted baritone. What stays in tune for one isn't going to stay in tune for the other, usually, and technique can rarely make a difference when a guitar is built or set up in a completely inappropriate way.

 

[stratamania]

Yes, I stand by what I said...

Playing chords out of tune is more related to inappropriate technique for the instrument one is playing on.

Whereas it may be that using smaller frets may be less of a hindrance to a lot of players it still boils down to technique in the end.

 

[PhilHill]

Ditto on bad technique causing out of tune playing. The players fingers really shouldn't be hitting the wood of the fingerboard. At least not heavily. The fingers should press the strings down to the fret and not much farther. Didn't say it was easy to do, but that is the proper technique the player should be striving for. In my opinion, and that of just about every teacher I've ever known. 

 

[TheGreatRedDragon]

I love 6100 frets, absolutely perfect for me. I love the height, I find lower frets to be too uncomfortable to bend on.

 

[JohnnyHardtail]

Its fairly normal to have higher action when using light gauge strings or on a short scale length guitar.  On the other hand, a set of medium gauge strings reduce the buzzing and can allow a lower setup height if your frets are well levelled.  The useful thing about high action is that it helps get a grip on the string when doing bends, so you may not need such a large fret.    Its probably the people who like 25.5" scale guitars with low action and using 0.010 size strings or heavier that are most likely to benefit from big frets.

 

[BroccoliRob]

Nah, for chords on guitar whether the chord is in tune or not depends mostly on set-up, string size and fret size. It's not like you can accidentally bending one of the notes while playing a G#m or whatever; you can easily be pushing the strings too far down and causing them to go sharp but sometimes it is necessary to press or grip that close to the wood in order to anchor your hand for far stretches. Prince's Purple Rain is a popular example; there's no way you're playing that Fadd9 without applying a lot of pressure 'cause nobody's fingers are meant to stretch that way lightly. There's no "inappropriate technique" there, it's just the nature and limitations of how the human hand's muscles work. (Prince's guitarist, Wendy Melvoin, apparently gave up even playing the full chord because her hand kept cramping from having to grip with that much force for 12+ minutes each night.)

If you're pushing down that hard on single notes then sure, you probably shouldn't be doing that and you should address your technique, but chords don't always give you that option.

I do definitely notice chords being thrown further out with lighter strings, bigger frets, higher action and shorter scales. The higher the strings are from the wood and the easier it is to push them around, the more they're going to go sharp if you do push them all the way down. If you ever play a 24" guitar with light strings (à la Brian May) you'll quickly notice how horrific it sounds if the action isn't set extremely low. Some people think it's the intonation and mess with the position of the bridge saddles, but really it's the action. A guitar like that will never sound in tune unless the strings are already very close to the frets and you either fret lightly or use such low wire that pressing to the wood makes no difference.
This is likely why Billy Gibbons still has the old Gibson 'fretless wonder' style of tiny fretwire on most of his guitars. He uses .008 or .009 strings depending on tuning and digs in both with his fretting hand and his pick hard, so low frets with low action enable him to abuse the strings without everything going sharp constantly.
This is, really, the argument against fretted instruments as a whole; the most accurate notes can only be made with a fretless instrument. As long as you have frets there is the possibility of pushing a string sharp. The bigger those frets are and the more you have/can push the strings around, the more likely you're going to go out of tune. 'S why as 'fast' and freeing as fretboard scalloping is, you're not going to find many rhythm players opting for it.

Ultimately everyone's hands are different and what everyone plays is different. If your hands and what you play can deal with big frets, light strings and high action without pushing anything sharp, okay, good for you, stick with it. But there's a good reason why most R&B funk strummers and fat-fingered classic jazz players and have stuck to vintage low frets with light strings, while your floaty sweep-picking progressive jazz players and metal shredders complain about intonation and tuning problems with anything less than .013s on a jumbo-fan-fretted baritone. What stays in tune for one isn't going to stay in tune for the other, usually, and technique can rarely make a difference when a guitar is built or set up in a completely inappropriate way.

Get a load of the ernest hemingways on this guy.

sure, mabes (maybe) you cant mitigate pressure very goodly on stretchy chords but its easy to adjust pressure on something basic like a barre chord. In teh grand scheme of a big picture, technique gonna always be #priority-number-1