Fret size question??

[rolloman]

Not absolutely sure what fret size I would like. My Tele now is closest to the 6130 frets. I have never played with anything taller but I do a fair amount of bending. Wonder if I would like the feel of the 6150 frets that are basically the same width but .010" taller. (.046 vs .036). What do you benders out there think? If I bought the taller ones how hard would it be to level them down .010" if I wanted them lower?

 

[Cagey]

For prolific benders, there is no greater favor you can do for yourself than to use stainless steel or gold frets. Doesn't change the tone or character at all, but they feel fantastic and bends are easier. Another happy feature is they have a dramatically longer lifespan.

As for height, that's really a personal preference. I like 'em very tall, so I use 6100s. But, if you aren't used to frets that tall, you'll play out of tune all the time. Once you do get used to them, though, you get a lot more control. Fretboard friction stops being an issue, as you aren't as firmly in contact with it. Bends and vibrato are easier. Happy medium would be the 6150 frets you've already identified, but in stainless.

 

[rolloman]

As far as fretwork how much harder are the stainless frets to level, dress, and crown?

 

[Strat Avenger]

I have guitars with 6150s and 6100s.
I prefer the 6150s.

I don't know how anyone can like small frets.

 

[rolloman]

Yeah, I'm kinda leaning that way too. Gonna get the 6150's. If I absolutely hate them there's always the material on them to rework them down in stages to something I like. Can't do that if I got 6130's.

 

[Cagey]

As far as fretwork how much harder are the stainless frets to level, dress, and crown?

I don't know how to quantify it. It's not really any more difficult, but it does take longer and you'll wear out typical tools pretty fast. Because of this, many techs will charge as much as double to fix up the frets on a stainless-equipped neck. But, better tools do exist that deal with the stainless just fine. I've got diamond tools here that I've had for years and 95% of the fretwork I do is stainless.

 

[Ace Flibble]

Stainless frets definitely change the tone. Having recently switched a guitar from standard to stainless frets, I can safely say the guitar now retains a lot more higher frequencies. Like the difference between a Tele bridge pickup with and without a metal baseplate, or new vs worn strings.

That said, maybe you'd like more high frequencies. Tone is up to you.

As far as sizes go, I started out on smaller wire, then moved up to 6150 for everything and now have started to dabble with 6100 (and 6000, in one case) and for me, I can't say I noticed bending getting any easier beyond 6150 wire. The 6100 and 6000 wire doesn't feel any different in that regard; 6150 is already high enough to get your fingers well clear of the fretboard. The advantage of those higher wires, though, is they give you more to play with in terms of levelling and crowning. Jeff Beck uses 'medium jumbo' (some say it's around 6150, but he's not using the Dunlop wire so it's hard to tell) levelled down to just a bit higher than standard 50s wire. I've taken one of my necks with 6150 wire and ground it down to just above 6130 height and I do think it's the best height, for me.
Then again I've played for years with 6130 and similar wires and never really had an issue. Is bending easier with the larger wires? Yes, vaguely. Is it some revolutionary change which will change the way you play? Not at all.

If I were you, used to 6130 but wanting to experiment with something larger, I'd go for 6150 wire and bank on levelling it down. Especially if you order a Warmoth neck, since Warmoth don't dress the frets so for best set up you'll have to level and crown them anyway. If you've ever tried a current production Gibson or one of the Deluxe or Classic Player Fender guitars, that is what 6150 levelled down feels like.

 

[rolloman]

thanks to all. I got the SS6150 frets.

 

[Cagey]

Good deal. You won't be sorry.

 

[Strat Avenger]

Stainless frets definitely change the tone. Having recently switched a guitar from standard to stainless frets, I can safely say the guitar now retains a lot more higher frequencies. Like the difference between a Tele bridge pickup with and without a metal baseplate, or new vs worn strings.

That said, maybe you'd like more high frequencies. Tone is up to you.

As far as sizes go, I started out on smaller wire, then moved up to 6150 for everything and now have started to dabble with 6100 (and 6000, in one case) and for me, I can't say I noticed bending getting any easier beyond 6150 wire. The 6100 and 6000 wire doesn't feel any different in that regard; 6150 is already high enough to get your fingers well clear of the fretboard. The advantage of those higher wires, though, is they give you more to play with in terms of levelling and crowning. Jeff Beck uses 'medium jumbo' (some say it's around 6150, but he's not using the Dunlop wire so it's hard to tell) levelled down to just a bit higher than standard 50s wire. I've taken one of my necks with 6150 wire and ground it down to just above 6130 height and I do think it's the best height, for me.
Then again I've played for years with 6130 and similar wires and never really had an issue. Is bending easier with the larger wires? Yes, vaguely. Is it some revolutionary change which will change the way you play? Not at all.

If I were you, used to 6130 but wanting to experiment with something larger, I'd go for 6150 wire and bank on levelling it down. Especially if you order a Warmoth neck, since Warmoth don't dress the frets so for best set up you'll have to level and crown them anyway. If you've ever tried a current production Gibson or one of the Deluxe or Classic Player Fender guitars, that is what 6150 levelled down feels like.

Uhm....no....they really don't. That is a myth.

 

[Cagey]

Right. I don't know how many necks with stainless frets I've gone through around here, but between me and my customers it's a pretty good sized number and I've never heard anything that could be credited to the frets. My experience isn't even a drop in the bucket compared to Warmoth's, and they can't tell any difference. They've even gone so far as to put it in writing. The farthest I would go to say is it seems like hammers and taps have a slightly edgier attack, but that could be the fretboard wood and it could be my imagination. I've not heard anyone else mention it.

Sometimes people will change several things on a guitar, but only credit or disparage one of them for the results. If the opinion gets repeated enough times and circulated far enough, it somehow magically turns into a fact.

The difference in cost is minimal. 4 feet of nickel/silver fretwire runs about $7, while 4 feet of stainless runs about $10. Bulk prices are even lower, of course. Stainless is somewhat more difficult to work, but that's easily surmountable with the proper tools. There's no discernable difference in sound/tone/character, but the feel is better and the lifespan is dramatically longer. What's not to love? I don't even keep any nickel/silver wire in stock. It's all gold and stainless. For as much trouble as fretting or refretting a guitar neck is (it's sometimes less expensive to buy a new neck), it would be foolish to put nickel/silver on.

 

[e_chord]

I had an EVH Wolfgang Special that had vintage size stainless steel frets.  It was nice for playing chords but for leads I felt like I was fighting the wood but to each their own.

I wish every guitar came with stainless steel frets, it surprises me that it isn't more mainstream.  I've had guitars that showed visible fretwear after a few days of playing.  Compared to the Wolfgang which I played daily for seven or eight months and when I sold it the frets showed no wear at all.

 

[Cagey]

I had an EVH Wolfgang Special that had vintage size stainless steel frets.  It was nice for playing chords but for leads I felt like I was fighting the wood but to each their own.

No doubt. How did you end up with "vintage" frets on an EVH Wolfgang Special?

 

[bagman67]

I think for your mass-produced instruments you'll continue to see nickel-silver predominate.  As Cagey says, the price difference for 4 feet of fret wire is not that much - but when you extend it to a ten-thousand instrument run, it adds up to serious coin.  And it will continue to predominate in the custom arena, as well, since much of what gets built is for a market that does not value innovation (i.e., vintage replica enthusiasts).  So it goes.

 

[Cagey]

Change is happening. Carvin offers stainless now, and even the Koreans are starting to. You can buy Agile Les Pauls with stainless frets. Then, there are folks like Warmoth and guys like me ruining it for the legacy OEMs and techs who want to charge double or more for something they do every day. Word is spreading - stainless is the way to go.

But, you're right - a million of anything is a lot - so the mainstream OEMs are always going to balk at any additional cost in time/material unless they can see their way clear to grossly overcharge for it. Just putting Eric Clapton or Eric Johnson's name on a bog-standard obsolete-tech Strat is worth 100% bump in sell price - what's a tangible improvement worth?

 

[Jumble Jumble]

We just need some well-respected yet progressive guitarist like Petrucci, Govan, whatever, to talk about how much he/she likes SS frets in an interview. At that point there'll be some interest generated at least at the boutique level - people like Collings or PRS might start adding it. From there it becomes gradually more pervasive until it makes it on to the next year's Fender American Standard Strats and Teles, or Gibson Les Paul Standards as a hyped new feature like Plek'ing, two-point tremolos or locking tuners.

 

[Cagey]

I wonder if those guys - the famous or the trendsetters - even think about such things? I mean, if I was famous, I probably wouldn't be pointing to my fret metal. I'd just use the best and when the pundits asked how I accomplished what I did, I'd say "Sometimes I practice a bit..." Or, like Frank Marino famously said during a particularly inane interview "I OD'd on acid and when I woke up in the hospital, I could just magically play!" It's entirely possible those guys are using stainless already. Regardless of what they'll admit to, you know they put in a lotta hours on the instrument, and you can only change frets just so many times before the slots won't hold them.

 

[Ace Flibble]

Okay, let me quote myself and bold the parts to aid those who apparently have a hard time reading plain English.

Stainless frets definitely change the tone. Having recently switched a guitar from standard to stainless frets, I can safely say the guitar now retains a lot more higher frequencies. Like the difference between a Tele bridge pickup with and without a metal baseplate, or new vs worn strings.

And to those who somehow (head injury, perhaps?) doubt this, try the following: buy a metal pickguard. Not a metal-looking pickguard, one actually made of metal. Steel would be most relevant, obviously. Don't change anything else about the guitar—even save the same strings, if you can—but do switch the pickguards. You'll notice that even with guitar designs like Les Paul Junriors, where the pickguard does not contact the strings, bridge, controls, jack or pickups, the tone still gets very noticably brighter. Not just a little bit, but a whole lot. For those who don't think a pickguard is enough of an example, try using a guitar with a metal nut, or try switching bridge saddles from brass or zinc to steel or titanium.

There is not a single person who would debate that changing to a steel nut or saddles is going to change the tone, so why on Earth would you ever think that changing the frets would be any different? They are in contact with the strings as much as either other part.

And like I said, and now restated, I very recently changed a guitar from nickel-silver to stainless steel frets—nothign else about the guitar was changed—and the tone jumped up in brightness so much I thought I had accidentally disconnected the volume and tone controls. The owner of the guitar noticed it too and I've now got the guitar in again to change the saddles and pickups to try to curb the brightness back down.

But apparently our ears believe in myths.

 

[Cagey]

And to those who somehow (head injury, perhaps?) doubt this, try the following: buy a metal pickguard. Not a metal-looking pickguard, one actually made of metal. Steel would be most relevant, obviously. Don't change anything else about the guitar—even save the same strings, if you can—but do switch the pickguards. You'll notice that even with guitar designs like Les Paul Junriors, where the pickguard does not contact the strings, bridge, controls, jack or pickups, the tone still gets very noticably brighter. Not just a little bit, but a whole lot. For those who don't think a pickguard is enough of an example, try using a guitar with a metal nut, or try switching bridge saddles from brass or zinc to steel or titanium.

Ok. So, in a discussion about the effects of fret material on tonal characteristics, you want to point out the effects of various metal compositions adjacent or surrounding the pickups relative to ground planes, hysteresis, saturation and eddy effects? I'm pretty sure that's not relevant, but I'm certainly interested in in what that relationship might be.

This relates to what I mentioned earlier in the thread - identifying which variable is responsible for the perceived change. Different things have different effects, so you have to isolate them in order to know what their effects are. You can't change a half dozen things on a guitar, then blame/credit the one you're not sure of.

There is not a single person who would debate that changing to a steel nut or saddles is going to change the tone, so why on Earth would you ever think that changing the frets would be any different? They are in contact with the strings as much as either other part.

Perzactly. Not sure what your point is there.

And like I said, and now restated, I very recently changed a guitar from nickel-silver to stainless steel frets—nothign else about the guitar was changed—and the tone jumped up in brightness so much I thought I had accidentally disconnected the volume and tone controls. The owner of the guitar noticed it too and I've now got the guitar in again to change the saddles and pickups to try to curb the brightness back down.

I don't doubt that's true. What I doubt is that the fret material is what caused the difference in performance. If you did the job properly, you resurfaced the fretboard before installing new frets. Now the new frets are seated more firmly/closely to the fretboard, so they transmit vibration to the neck better. That would explain the difference you hear much more than just changing the fret alloy.

But apparently our ears believe in myths.

My ears don't believe in anything. They're just sensors, and pretty good ones at that.

 

[Strat Avenger]

Okay, let me quote myself and bold the parts to aid those who apparently have a hard time reading plain English.

Stainless frets definitely change the tone. Having recently switched a guitar from standard to stainless frets, I can safely say the guitar now retains a lot more higher frequencies. Like the difference between a Tele bridge pickup with and without a metal baseplate, or new vs worn strings.

And to those who somehow (head injury, perhaps?) doubt this, try the following: buy a metal pickguard. Not a metal-looking pickguard, one actually made of metal. Steel would be most relevant, obviously. Don't change anything else about the guitar—even save the same strings, if you can—but do switch the pickguards. You'll notice that even with guitar designs like Les Paul Junriors, where the pickguard does not contact the strings, bridge, controls, jack or pickups, the tone still gets very noticably brighter. Not just a little bit, but a whole lot. For those who don't think a pickguard is enough of an example, try using a guitar with a metal nut, or try switching bridge saddles from brass or zinc to steel or titanium.

There is not a single person who would debate that changing to a steel nut or saddles is going to change the tone, so why on Earth would you ever think that changing the frets would be any different? They are in contact with the strings as much as either other part.

And like I said, and now restated, I very recently changed a guitar from nickel-silver to stainless steel frets—nothign else about the guitar was changed—and the tone jumped up in brightness so much I thought I had accidentally disconnected the volume and tone controls. The owner of the guitar noticed it too and I've now got the guitar in again to change the saddles and pickups to try to curb the brightness back down.

But apparently our ears believe in myths.

I would bet a crisp $500 bill that you could not tell the difference in a blind listening test.

SS frets will not make a guitar sound "brighter", all else being equal.