fret dress
- Thread starter JTM
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jackthehack
Epic Member
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No
The vast, vast majority of customers can bolt the neck on and play. However, if you have very specific action requirements, it is reasonable to expect a fret level.
I happen to like a specific feel to the fret ends and rolled edges, so I've learned to do it myself. And yes, I do use the fret tools sold by Warmoth.
I happen to like a specific feel to the fret ends and rolled edges, so I've learned to do it myself. And yes, I do use the fret tools sold by Warmoth.
TonyFlyingSquirrel
Master Member
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I might add, with some patience, you can get stellar results with these tools if you're not in a hurry to remove metal.
A good tip, start out with a finer grit file, rather than course. Course files will remove more material more quickly, finer files take more time, which is better for a first timer. Removing material more slowly will prevent you from removing too much material for undesirable results.
The last thing you want is for your new neck to arrive and you get in a hurry to level & crown the frets for ultra low action and then you end up needing a complete re-fret due to a poor first time job.
I highly recommend the Stew Mac DVD's on fretwork. They really help provide an insight not only on the basics of fretwork, but a couple of different methods for application and preference sake.
A good tip, start out with a finer grit file, rather than course. Course files will remove more material more quickly, finer files take more time, which is better for a first timer. Removing material more slowly will prevent you from removing too much material for undesirable results.
The last thing you want is for your new neck to arrive and you get in a hurry to level & crown the frets for ultra low action and then you end up needing a complete re-fret due to a poor first time job.
I highly recommend the Stew Mac DVD's on fretwork. They really help provide an insight not only on the basics of fretwork, but a couple of different methods for application and preference sake.
Chris of Arabia
Senior Member
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TonyFlyingSquirrel said:
Can't agree more. I used this as my instruction manual for my one and only fret dress (2nd Warmoth neck), WhilstI know it still needs a little work to smooth over a couple of slightly rough frets, it's not to level them, just to add the final polish. That DVD is money well spent and much cheaper than a re-fret
Low is O.K., buzz-free no - as far as buzz-FREE can be concerned, that's all compromise... I find Warmoth's out-of-the-box fret feel to often be toothy, to the point that if I'm practicing 5 or 6 hours a day I cut open my index and little fingers between the 2nd and last joints on the top edges of the frets as is. Most people aren't practicing that much, and it's really not hard to take the wire hair edge off if you learn how. Warmoths, $1200 Fenders, $3000 Gibsons, all come out of the shop needing a final fret dress, as far as I'm concerned - it depends on how picky you are about a guitar playing well.
Few things to keep in mind -
Is there finish on the frets? That needs to be removed!
Are the frets fully seated? High frets sometimes occur - and all ya have to do is plastic mallet them back down.
Is the setup as it should be?
Have you reached the mathematical limit of the action. <--- Some folks think "if only the frets were better dressed" the action would be lower, lighter, smoother, etc etc. There is a limit, set by mathematics. It all depends on the bends you desire, and the radius of the neck. I've not done compound necks... but I can tell you that a two step bend, on a 12 inch radius, needs 3.5/64ths of an inch on the high E and about 4/64th of an inch on the low to make it all feel good. Go under that, and you wont get clean bends at fret 12 and up to about fret 19
So, before one goes dressing away... one should really see if what they are wanting is feasable, and if simple, easy and correct fixes are more in line with the problem.
FWIW, I had a high fret on the goncalo neck I got almost a year ago. Last fret... fret 22...high. Everything was set as it should be, but fret 22 was high and measured high. I beat it lightly with a plastic mallet. Now its not high. I dunno what happened but it settled into its slot. Lets call it atmospherics.... that was the cause.
Is there finish on the frets? That needs to be removed!
Are the frets fully seated? High frets sometimes occur - and all ya have to do is plastic mallet them back down.
Is the setup as it should be?
Have you reached the mathematical limit of the action. <--- Some folks think "if only the frets were better dressed" the action would be lower, lighter, smoother, etc etc. There is a limit, set by mathematics. It all depends on the bends you desire, and the radius of the neck. I've not done compound necks... but I can tell you that a two step bend, on a 12 inch radius, needs 3.5/64ths of an inch on the high E and about 4/64th of an inch on the low to make it all feel good. Go under that, and you wont get clean bends at fret 12 and up to about fret 19
So, before one goes dressing away... one should really see if what they are wanting is feasable, and if simple, easy and correct fixes are more in line with the problem.
FWIW, I had a high fret on the goncalo neck I got almost a year ago. Last fret... fret 22...high. Everything was set as it should be, but fret 22 was high and measured high. I beat it lightly with a plastic mallet. Now its not high. I dunno what happened but it settled into its slot. Lets call it atmospherics.... that was the cause.
I've finished the guitar and played it for a while it turns out it did need a fret dress.
I had very bad buzzes between the 16h and 21st frets with a medium-low action. Tried seating the 21st and 22nd frets, no luck.
So I decided to level them. Turns out the frets between 16th and 20 included were much lower than the rest ! To the point it took me quite a bit of leveling on the rest of the frets to get to touch these. It now plays much better.
Now I find this a bit disappointing. Not sure how this could happen ? I probably just had bad luck, but I have two other warmoths in the pipeline ( :help: I'm addicted ) and I hope they won't have similar issues.
I had very bad buzzes between the 16h and 21st frets with a medium-low action. Tried seating the 21st and 22nd frets, no luck.
So I decided to level them. Turns out the frets between 16th and 20 included were much lower than the rest ! To the point it took me quite a bit of leveling on the rest of the frets to get to touch these. It now plays much better.
Now I find this a bit disappointing. Not sure how this could happen ? I probably just had bad luck, but I have two other warmoths in the pipeline ( :help: I'm addicted ) and I hope they won't have similar issues.
dudesweet157
Hero Member
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That sounds totally wrong to me, and if they were lower, they would affect the action of the frets below them. Did you adjust the truss rod when you set it up?
When those frets are "low" and buzzing, it means you have too much relief.
Whats happening there is the neck is actually curving upward, so to get a good action, the bridge is lowered. The effect is the part of the neck that is not curving upward - frets 16 to 20 or so will buzz because the bridge is too low.
The remedy - always - is measured... MEASURED setups, until you've done enough by way of measurement, so you can do them in your sleep.
Not knocking anyone... or the poster here... but there is some math involved as to what will actually "work". When folks say, "medium low" action, that is a totally meaningless phrase. When folks say "just a little relief" its equally meaningless.
For the "action", you must remember there are two action adjustments. Bridge and truss rod. If your neck has about .005 relief and the strings are set at 3.5/64th of an inch on the high E and 4/64 on the low E thats about the theoretic limit of what it will do. When you ease the truss rod and the relief moves from .005 to .010 at fret 7 or 8, then at fret 16-17 you've raised the action by .010. Doesn't seem like a lot... you can tell though, since .015 is about 1/64 of an inch, and you can REALL tell that. But, if you let the relief go out to say .015 or .020, then you've got .030 more elevation on the upper frets, without raising the bridge. If you then lower the bridge .030 - a full 32nd of an inch - a huge huge amount.
So, the relief plays a critical, and vital part of the overall string elevation and "action". And newbies and old farts are well to take the measurements... use an eye loup when setting up the guitars, and know the mathematical limit to the action.
Whats happening there is the neck is actually curving upward, so to get a good action, the bridge is lowered. The effect is the part of the neck that is not curving upward - frets 16 to 20 or so will buzz because the bridge is too low.
The remedy - always - is measured... MEASURED setups, until you've done enough by way of measurement, so you can do them in your sleep.
Not knocking anyone... or the poster here... but there is some math involved as to what will actually "work". When folks say, "medium low" action, that is a totally meaningless phrase. When folks say "just a little relief" its equally meaningless.
For the "action", you must remember there are two action adjustments. Bridge and truss rod. If your neck has about .005 relief and the strings are set at 3.5/64th of an inch on the high E and 4/64 on the low E thats about the theoretic limit of what it will do. When you ease the truss rod and the relief moves from .005 to .010 at fret 7 or 8, then at fret 16-17 you've raised the action by .010. Doesn't seem like a lot... you can tell though, since .015 is about 1/64 of an inch, and you can REALL tell that. But, if you let the relief go out to say .015 or .020, then you've got .030 more elevation on the upper frets, without raising the bridge. If you then lower the bridge .030 - a full 32nd of an inch - a huge huge amount.
So, the relief plays a critical, and vital part of the overall string elevation and "action". And newbies and old farts are well to take the measurements... use an eye loup when setting up the guitars, and know the mathematical limit to the action.
JTM said:
About half of the customers that get a Warmoth neck don't need a fret level and half do. It simply comes down to how level we get it, how the neck reacts to its new home's climate and how you specifically like your action. If you always expect to need a fret level, then you can be pleasantly surprised when you don't. That keeps the worry and frustration down to about zero.
I did do some measurements, this is not my first setup either.
Relief a 7h string is 0.007" so I wouldn't call that too much. I've tried having a bit more and a bit less and this gave me the best compromise on the neck. String height about 4/64" on the bass side, 3/64" on treble.
When I dressed the frets I set the neck dead straight and these frets just were lower, no idea why but that's a fact.
Relief a 7h string is 0.007" so I wouldn't call that too much. I've tried having a bit more and a bit less and this gave me the best compromise on the neck. String height about 4/64" on the bass side, 3/64" on treble.
When I dressed the frets I set the neck dead straight and these frets just were lower, no idea why but that's a fact.
Also while I have nothing against doing the maths ( in fact I work in a heavily mathematic engineering field ) for the theoritical limits, in reality neither the geometry or the measurements are exact so I trust more what I see and hear than what the ideal model says.
I've got a fender american deluxe strat which is very similar to the Warmoth I did ( although it doesn't sound half as good ). Before I did the fret dress it played with lower action, slightly more relief and less buzz ... I don't have the measurements in mind though.
Now the Warmoth plays almost as good, but to be honest the strat has been dressed and setup by a pro luthier and is one of the best playing guitars I've ever had so I didn't expect to do as perfect a job.
I've got a fender american deluxe strat which is very similar to the Warmoth I did ( although it doesn't sound half as good ). Before I did the fret dress it played with lower action, slightly more relief and less buzz ... I don't have the measurements in mind though.
Now the Warmoth plays almost as good, but to be honest the strat has been dressed and setup by a pro luthier and is one of the best playing guitars I've ever had so I didn't expect to do as perfect a job.
There's an aspect to fretwork called "fall away" where the frets from about the 14th on up actually slant away a bit lower than the mathematical model of a single vibrating string. I'm real sure that Warmoth doesn't put it into the plane of the fingerboard, in fact I can't imagine a safe way to do it on the board itself with machines - it's usually only added to the leveling of the frets. It will make a neck play better, especially a 24-fret neck. I've got about .010" or .012" relief on my new 24-fret seven string, and I'm going to be tightening it up a bit - I'm shooting for .003" to dead flat. I'd rather have it flat than too much relief, because without the fall away, a long neck with too much relief actually curves back up under the strings at the top.
The fall away isn't mathematically correct, but it compensates for the anchoring area of the truss rod where it can't change the camber of the neck - there's often a little hump at the top for the same reason, both of which which can be compensated for with a decent fret dressing. Only the very custom-est of the custom builders actually plane their fingerboards crooked, so that they'll be flat when you crank up the truss rod. :icon_smile:
There's somewhat of an explanation of fall away here, though I don't agree with all of this guy's methods of fret dressing:
http://www.frettech.com/
(Info-> Fret Level & Crown -> second picture)
The fall away probably doesn't even matter if you're happy with medium action and/or you don't play a lot. There's no telling when /if I'll get to leveling the the frets on my seven. I did round the fret ends and I'm going to do a quick steel wool polish the next string change but with an action of 3/64" treble and 4/64" bass, once I get it trussed flat it'll be good enough for a while - I want to play the darn things, not build 'em all the time....
The fall away isn't mathematically correct, but it compensates for the anchoring area of the truss rod where it can't change the camber of the neck - there's often a little hump at the top for the same reason, both of which which can be compensated for with a decent fret dressing. Only the very custom-est of the custom builders actually plane their fingerboards crooked, so that they'll be flat when you crank up the truss rod. :icon_smile:
There's somewhat of an explanation of fall away here, though I don't agree with all of this guy's methods of fret dressing:
http://www.frettech.com/
(Info-> Fret Level & Crown -> second picture)
The fall away probably doesn't even matter if you're happy with medium action and/or you don't play a lot. There's no telling when /if I'll get to leveling the the frets on my seven. I did round the fret ends and I'm going to do a quick steel wool polish the next string change but with an action of 3/64" treble and 4/64" bass, once I get it trussed flat it'll be good enough for a while - I want to play the darn things, not build 'em all the time....
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