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For all the lovers of exquisite naked exotic woods here

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StubHead said:
Well, I think the issue of "agencies run amuck" certainly transcends any party, President and even country - Romans knew about this stuff. An agency gets funded as a result of their measurable "accomplishments" and their ability to appear to need more funding, so the "best" bureaucrats are not the ones that do the most good - gee, that's innocent - but the ones who make the most measurable noise about saving civilization from the brink. They're clear cutting and simply burning up South American forests way faster than the wood can even be harvested ahead, everyone knows that parking lots are better than trees. The wood from the previous bust was Madagascar ebony and the concern was it's being smuggled, and governments always take a dim view of things they're not taxing.

This time around the Fish & Wildlife Service is apparently looking for an exact paper trail for some wood that Gibson bought from "a Forest Stewardship Council certified supplier", according to Henry Juszkiewicz. The burden is apparently supposed to be on Gibson to prove that their suppliers aren't lying? It seems like high-profile, "Look at US!" kind of posturing... Customs can't really go after the people smugglers, because we like the cheap workers (the rich folk do, at least) and the DEA has done a botch-up on the drug smugglers;
But the brave agents of the Fish & Wildlife Service are there to protect us in times of peril!

From... dangerous, savage unregistered... fingerboards... hmmm. Maybe they're angling for a big Hollywood blockbuster movie and their own comic book? Gee,  I wonder when their budget come up for review. :icon_scratch:
Wow, I'll be able to sleep good at night now knowing the Fish & Wildlife Service has my back.. I'd hate to be having to look over my shoulder all the time for a rouge terrorist guitar neck... :doh:
 
DangerousR6 said:
I'd hate to be having to look over my shoulder all the time for a rouge terrorist guitar neck... :doh:

Yeah, those pinkish-red terrorist guitar necks scare me, too. Almost as much as rogue terrorist guitar necks <grin>
 
from a discussion on this topic at MIMF (http://www.mimf.com/cgi-bin/WebX?128@251.Bd1EajAqJ9I.292085@.2cb70819)

Gibson’s prior Madagascar ebony and rosewood issue of the November, 2009 raid is one thing, but this new problem (August 24, 2011 raids on 4 locations) with Indian rosewood and ebony fingerboard blanks is another. It seems that India has regulations banning wood exports of anything over 6mm thickness unless it’s been worked beyond simply “sawn wood” inside their country. But it’s not possible to have India process fingerboard blanks any further into a slotted, shaped, inlaid and bound form, and the Indian Ministry of Trade is O.K. with that since the fingerboards aren’t raw lumber and actually have been worked on as far as reasonable. But the U.S. government is insisting that not going all the way makes the blanks “sawn wood” and thus illegal to export according to Indian law even though Indian authorities are fine with fingerboard blanks! Additionally, there’s been some understandable confusion with appropriate tariff code numbers; and also with having the boards drop-shipped from India to a broker and then a storage facility while being invoiced by LMII, especially since Gibson and not LMII are taking ultimate delivery. It’s bureaucratic harassment and abusive enforcement by agencies with almost total power and less than total understanding of their own regs.

LMII has done everything possible to establish conformance with the law and provide all documents, paper trails, chain of custody evidence, etc. But now they’re justifiably worried that big white trucks and heavily armed agents will show up unannounced at their address, a scenario they might not be able to survive. Even though the U.S. instrument industry accounts for but 1% of wood use here, they seem to be getting disproportionately targeted no matter how much such harassment might endanger the industry’s survival or how many jobs could be lost. It’s all expendable compared to such lofty goals as saving the planet from animal and plant exploiters and rapists!

If these charges hold up, then virtually all Indian ebony and rosewood fingerboard blanks used in the entire industry are illegal, and everyone’s wood inventories and instruments would be liable to seizure and harsh penalties. In fact, the same would apply to all guitar woods over 6mm thick originating in India. So, I’d imagine that all the big dogs are watching this very closely – as goes Gibson, so goes the whole industry. The U.S. government is quickly making it increasingly difficult for small as well as large businesses to survive rampant over-regulation.

(Private message me your email address and will send attachments of the full search warrant affidavit and Gibson’s official press release response.)

What can we do to revise badly written and unworkable regulations, and stop increasingly abusive enforcement? Let upcoming electoral candidates know there’s a very serious problem that’s quickly endangering a lot of domestic businesses and killing formerly healthy small international sales, as well as negatively impacting all musicians who travel out of the country. If this could become a campaign issue which highlights some of the deeply flawed and over-regulated current federal policies and could gain public support, it’s possible to change things.

Much of the problem has nothing at all to do with material from protected plant and animal species, but more to do with bureaucratic and regulatory demands involving non-listed species and costs that are impossibly complicated and unnecessary. In the case of genuine vintage and antique instruments (and many other non-instrument products) current enforcement practices are really nothing more than permission for federal agencies to vandalize and destroy priceless and irreplaceable objects, harass legitimate businesses, musicians, and collectors, and block many traditional exchanges between cultures.

To address a few points which seem to be causing confusion:

1) The issue isn’t at all about “sawed Indian ebony logs with paperwork identified as finger boards”. It’s about fingerboard blanks, and whether or not they can be considered a product involving enough native labor to satisfy the export laws of India. It’s also about a wrong (but closely related) tariff code being entered on only SOME of the paperwork.

2) What’s an acceptable product? As the agent himself pointed out in Gibson’s search warrant affidavit, there’s a distinction between a “fingerboard” (an unfretted wood blank of rough size) and a “fretboard” (which is slotted and contains fret wire). If so, then those are two different products, and as such it’s possible to have a fingerboard blank as distinguished from simply “sawn wood” – adding slots, wires, inlays, shaping and binding would make that blank into a related but different product. In the same way, we offer flat shell blanks, veneers, Abalam® sheets, and strips made to specifications according to what their intended use is: as materials which may or may not be remanufactured/incorporated into other types of finished products such as inlays, guitars, jewelry, furniture, fishing lures, and so on. Similarly, plywood is imported as a product unto itself without it needing to be in another and more final form such as furniture, boxes, or whatever.

To insist, as the U.S. agencies seem to be doing, that materials from India must be in their ultimate retail form is insane, especially in light of the Indian government not interpreting their own regs that way or insisting on such nonsense.

3) Compelling U.S. citizens to obey foreign laws isn’t exactly correct. The Lacey Act assumes that other entities (both foreign and domestic) know best how to manage their respective plant and animal resources, and it attempts to honor those regulations whether they be tribal, regional, state, federal, or foreign. Gibson’s ebony from India is being challenged on the basis of how our agencies interpret the laws of India, regardless of how India herself interprets them.

4) In applying for and accepting most federal permits (such as the USFWS Import/Export Permit), the document specifically states that by signing you have agreed to have authorities examine at any time they wish your premises, paperwork, and inventory. So it’s not an issue of unreasonable search and seizure.

What's confusing is that in the search warrant affidavit Agent Rayfield goes to some length in distinguishing an unslotted "fretboard" from a slotted and fretted "fingerboard" (Para. 13) as found on a finished instrument, and later (para. 22) distinguishes HS 9209.92.00 as "finished parts of musical instruments".

He also mentions (Para. 13) that "importers and exporters have sometimes referred to the sawn pieces of wood intended to be manufactured into fretboards as 'fingerboards' or 'fingerboard blanks'". But he contends that even though these may be informally referred to as "fingerboards" they're actually no more than "sawn wood" and being over 6mm in thickness are "sawn logs" (Para. 19 and 25) and thus a prohibited HS 4407 item (Para. 12).

So at issue is whether or not "fingerboards" exceeding 6mm are "finished parts for musical instruments" as would be allowed under HS 9209.92.00. If not, the argument is that they're "sawn logs" and illegal.

and from Chuck's following post

None of the shell currently used in the industry is "listed" (threatened, endangered, or protected), but border agents have more than once confused it with the couple of species which are, such as white ocean pearl oyster (Pinctada maxima) for the banned White abalone (Haliotis sorenseni), or Paua ab. (H. iris) for the protected Black ab. (H. cracherodii). An expert could easily distinguish these but border agents can't possible be specialists in all the thousands of things they need to deal with. Even if paperwork is correctly submitted it can still be challenged and the material sent to a government lab for testing (and you can be charged over $1000.00 for the lab work and a "storage" fee even if the government was wrong).

Lacey requires interstate shipments of fish or wildlife materials/products to be labeled as such on the outside of every container, with a full description attached either outside or inside (common and Latin species names, country of origin, and amount of each in metric volume or weight). No one has ever yet bothered to enforce this law, but if ever challenged that wouldn't be accepted as a defense. The interstate marking regulation does NOT apply to plant materials such as instrument woods.

Some things to keep in mind on all of this are that 1) CITES only applies at the international border; 2) the Lacey Act concerns materials already in the U.S., but along with demanding conformance to domestic tribal, state or federal laws (Endangered Species Act, Marine Mammal Protection Act, etc.) it also requires that no international laws were violated (such as CITES) or those of any country involved in the material’s origin or chain of custody.

The way this plays out in practice is that for any material already here in the states (which isn’t just outright illegal) it’s up to the U.S. agencies to prove that a violation has been committed, and that can’t be done without them producing either a paper trail or witnesses. So for any Brazilian rosewood that lacks paperwork, it might be questioned but can’t be confiscated or banned from use or sale. But as soon as that wood (or anything made from it) tries to leave the country the burden of proof changes and it’s then up to the owner to provide a paper trail proving it was imported legally or pre-ban.

If using paperless B.R. you should probably get the buyer to sign off on a statement saying they understand that the wood is legal within the U.S., but that it cannot be legally exported and that you will not be responsible for anything that happens if it is ever presented at the border. Include this on the invoice and/or on a document that stays in the instrument case (or maybe on the label?).

APHIS recently issued guidelines for getting exemption certificates on pre-2008 items (including guitars) which contain unknown woods or lack other information (but only if the wood is really not identifiable!): http://www.aphis.usda.gov/plant_health/lacey_act/downloads/lacey-act-special-use-codes.pdf

It’s also possible, at least theoretically, to get exemption certification on old paperless “legacy” or “estate” woods such as Brazilian by using the Plant and Plant Product Declaration Form PPQ-505, and this is the same form used to register pre-ban wood that has legitimate documents. The APHIS agent who spoke at June’s ASIA meeting asked for a show of hands among the hall full of luthiers of anyone who had attempted to get certification based on a simple written statement of fact, and no hands went up. He said that although uncommon, there have been allowances made for a clear and detailed written history when no actual paper trail was available, and that the luthier community should give this a try. Write up as much detailed history on your old wood as you can recall, noting names, dates, locations, the amount involved in the original transaction, and the exact amount of wood now being held; if possible, contact anyone involved in the original deal, or any other witnesses, and get them to write up and sign supporting statements. Have this material notarized and submit it, along with the required application fee, and see what happens. I have a luthier friend who at this moment is doing exactly that, so we’ll see what happens!

and a follow-up from Chris Herrod of LMI

Hello Everyone!
I think Chuck has explained the whole Lacey act morass as well as anyone could. Of course we are anxiously watching the Gibson situation but we are empowered with the knowledge that we have been doing things right all along.

Our Lacey act program began in Spring 2010. We are comfortable that we were buying legal wood before then, but since then we have gone to great lengths with many suppliers (and have "fired" a number of them) in order to make sure that they are complying with the laws in their country.

Now because we have been researching this (extensively, numerous conferences around the country etc.) and have been vigorously scrutinizing our suppliers, we feel that we are a very safe bet as far as being a source for tonewoods. Many wood dealers (most?) are not as diligent and many are still oblivious about the new era we are working in -and some are oblivious about the Lacey act altogether!

So with this perspective we feel confident that Gibson, LMI and other manufactures and suppliers who use Rosewood and Ebony (and who do their homework) will be completely vindicated once the truth finally comes to light. This event (the recent Gibson raid) should be cause to contact your representatives and to lobby for reform of the painfully vague Lacey Act. The intentions of this act are good (to prohibit the trade of poached woods, for example) but the implementation of the law has been absurd.

Chris Herrod -LMI

if we're going to discss it, it's good to have a reasonable understanding of what the real issue is with the Gibby raid so we can actually discuss points that are relatively germane to what happened
 
Thanks Rod.  That's good first hand information.  I spoke with Chris about their (LMI) procedures at the GAL convention.  It is good to see they are working hard to make the best of an ugly situation.

Here's a letter from NAMM to the President and Congress: http://www.mmrmagazine.com/3520/news/namm-responds-to-recent-lacey-act-developments/
The letter was sent yesterday.  This issue has been getting a lot more press after the Gibson raid.  While it is not good for Gibson, this might help bring more media attention on the Lacey Act and its impact on US businesses.
 
I just find myself wondering about the proportionality of the response and publicity - I mean, not too many people know that cyanide is used to extract gold from low gold density rocks and gravel, and that cyanide dumping and leaks have be endemic ever since the process was discovered - the Amazon has had terrible problems. And even finer extraction with boiling mercury...  :o  And not too many people know (or want to know) about the leakage, hijacking and general poisonous capacity of the oil industry in Nigeria  - they pollute more every single year than in our Gulf of Mexico oil spill.

I mean, there's a lot of awful stuff going on all the time, and raiding guitar makers armed with calipers looks to me to be going after the easy (& air-conditioned) low-hanging fruit. Who decides what to go after? A rational process, or is future budget allocation through publicity a real factor? Of course the people I know want guitars, all guitars, cheap guitars; I wonder how this plays out among the Great Unwashed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gold_cyanidation
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nigeria_oil#An_environment_of_crisis_.281993-present.29
 
Teletuby said:
the laws are there for a reason
I have to agree that some woods are beautiful but so endangered they need to be protected, and I will not lower myself causing extinction for personal enjoyment. Look at what happened to the vast stands of CA Redwoods. We do not have forest of them any more, just groves.
In this country you are innocent until proven guilty so what if Gibson did not break any laws?  If that is so then this raid has nothing whatsoever to do with the extinction of any exotic wood but all to do with a government grasping at straws and whose knee jerk reaction bullied Gibson’s management, employees and indirectly its customers. I guess after the colossal failure of operation Fast and Furious perhaps they figured it wiser to go after "criminals" who are along the lines of Mary Poppins.

Lacey regs...      http://www.aphis.usda.gov/plant_health/lacey_act/

Applies to cars...   http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2011/08/cross-the-border-lose-your-bentley-the-lacey-act-applies-to-automobiles-too/
 
Kadmium said:
Street Avenger said:
They could pull this same B.S. on Warmoth, or any other guitar manufacturer...
Unless Warmoth are illegally importing protected endangered species, it seems unlikely. Gibson bought the wood illegally and now they're seeing the consequences of that. As a result, they're trying to fearmonger us into thinking we should be afraid as well. They're getting their come-uppance and are now behaving like spoiled children.

If anyone EVER has their guitar confiscated at a border because of CITES or the Lacey act, I will eat my hat.

Excuse me?? Gibson did nothing illegal, which is why they HAVE NOT BEEN CHARGED with anything. There is no "fear-mongering"  going on here. You are one of those people who will wake up one morning and wonder where all your freedom went.
 
Street Avenger said:
Excuse me?? Gibson did nothing illegal, which is why they HAVE NOT BEEN CHARGED with anything. There is no "fear-mongering"  going on here. You are one of those people who will wake up one morning and wonder where all your freedom went.

STOP NOW. 

Per the forum guidelines:
* Politics:  As a subject, politics is as controversial as you can get. Posts dedicated to this topic often get heated and burn up a lot of moderator time. We don't want to moderate politics, we want a guitar parts forum. Threads dedicated to politics will be deleted without warning and that posting member likely banned. Hijacking a thread with political comments can also result in that thread being deleted and the offending member being banned from this board.


Back off the politics and the personal attacks.  NOW.
 
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