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Finally (warning for the kiddies: Agile info inside)

GoDrex said:
Thanks guys but that doesn't really answer my question. Who is SL moaning about? I just haven't seen anyone HERE bash Agile LP's in any way. It's possible I missed it.
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Wasn't me.  I'm sure they're better than many Gibsons, for what that's worth.  I'm curious as well if this conspiracy theory can be substantiated.

-Mark
 
Superlizard said:
And I missed this - a neck-thru 3000M (with maple cap)... LEFTY:

http://www.rondomusic.com/product3690.html

al3000mthrucsbfwide1left.jpg


w00t!
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im pretty sure this image is flipped. for real. unless Agile has made a habit on putting their headstock logo on backwards. :icon_scratch:
 
It just costs too much to produce those dang digital images for such a small market. They would take a huge hit if they gave lefties real pics.
 
AprioriMark said:
Wasn't me.  I'm sure they're better than many Gibsons, for what that's worth.  I'm curious as well if this conspiracy theory can be substantiated.
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No, because you'd be trying to prove a negative, which is usually somewhere between difficult and impossible. But, have you ever heard of "astroturfing"?

Astroturfing denotes political, advertising, or public relations campaigns that are formally planned by an organization, but are disguised as spontaneous, popular "grassroots" behavior. The term refers to AstroTurf, a brand of synthetic carpeting designed to look like natural grass.

The goal of such campaigns is to disguise the efforts of a political or commercial entity as an independent public reaction to some political entity—a politician, political group, product, service or event. Astroturfers attempt to orchestrate the actions of apparently diverse and geographically distributed individuals, by both overt ("outreach", "awareness", etc.) and covert (disinformation) means. Astroturfing may be undertaken by an individual promoting a personal agenda, or highly organized professional groups with money from large corporations, unions, non-profits, or activist organizations. Very often, the efforts are conducted by political consultants who also specialize in opposition research. Beneficiaries are not "grass root" campaigners but distant organizations that orchestrate such campaigns.
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The technique has almost certainly been widely used to disparage companies like Agile and Behringer, who disrupt the business models of entrenched manufacturers who enjoy outrageous markups on their products. It has nothing to do with American or Foreign made, although many will cite that as a divisive point to take advantage of nationalistic sympathies without regard to economics, because most of the people who defend the the status quo or disparage the new entrant have the bulk of their product produced overseas as well.
 
Patrick said:
It just costs too much to produce those dang digital images for such a small market. They would take a huge hit if they gave lefties real pics.
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More like Kurt just got new stock in and doesn't have time to do official pics - I'm pretty sure he's a one-man show.

Anyways I don't care for the hippie-sandwich featured on the neck-thrus.. but the tiger eye is certainly
up my alley.  I was shocked that there was an "M" (3000M) model even available for lefties.

Hey, could be HNGD for me very soon, and once again after a few weeks of celebrating
my previous HNGD! (the cherry sunburst)  :icon_thumright:
 
Superlizard said:
Patrick said:
It just costs too much to produce those dang digital images for such a small market. They would take a huge hit if they gave lefties real pics.
Click to expand...

More like Kurt just got new stock in and doesn't have time to do official pics - I'm pretty sure he's a one-man show.
Click to expand...

That's my guess.  Who cares if the pic is reversed, really.  If we're not getting EXACT pics of the EXACT guitar we're gonna buy anyway... it's just a representation, right?

-Mark
 
AprioriMark said:
That's my guess.  Who cares if the pic is reversed, really.  If we're not getting EXACT pics of the EXACT guitar we're gonna buy anyway... it's just a representation, right?

-Mark
Click to expand...

Ah but isn't every picture a representation of the actual thing? 

:icon_scratch:

:o

 
Interesting... Halloween is coming up soon.

And Tiger's Eye is conveniently Halloween-themed enough to justify a purchase.

That's what I'll tell my woman... it's for the holiday... yeah, dat's da ticket.  :icon_thumright:

3497688028_36a7302177.jpg
 
Cagey said:
There doesn't seem to be much love lost for Gibson on this forum, but most music-oriented message boards will take you out back and beat you within an inch of your life with a dirty gym sock full of lag bolts for even suggesting that anything could come close to the holy grail that is a Gibson Les Paul. And I mean Holy Grail. They're religious about it. Gibson could ship the thing as a completely unfinished bag of sawdust with no hardware, and they'd still swear it was the The Thing To Have. Not that I have anything against Les Paul style guitars, but I'm practical about them. The real adherents are as evangelical about them as fundamentalist Muslims. You don't dare say a critical word, on pain of death.

Personally, I think they're just embarrassed. Agile LPs are everything a Gibson LP is at least, and for a whole order of magnitude less money. If I bought an LP custom from Gibson and saw an Agile after the fact, I'd be clutching at straws to justify it, too. Otherwise, I look incredibly stupid.
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I F-ING hate them. Fugliest guitars this side of a Telecaster. Cagey, PM me these other 'music-oriented message boards' so that I might 'contribute' to the discussion. Losers.  :evil4:

ORC
 
Superlizard said:
AprioriMark said:
That's my guess.  Who cares if the pic is reversed, really.  If we're not getting EXACT pics of the EXACT guitar we're gonna buy anyway... it's just a representation, right?

-Mark
Click to expand...

Ah but isn't every picture a representation of the actual thing?   

:icon_scratch:

:o
Click to expand...

Hahaha, too true.

-Mark
 
Cagey said:
The technique has almost certainly been widely used to disparage companies like Agile and Behringer, who disrupt the business models of entrenched manufacturers who enjoy outrageous markups on their products. It has nothing to do with American or Foreign made, although many will cite that as a divisive point to take advantage of nationalistic sympathies without regard to economics, because most of the people who defend the the status quo or disparage the new entrant have the bulk of their product produced overseas as well.
Click to expand...

Unfortunately this leads us into the conspiracy theorist's never never land:

Criticisms of products made by companies like Agile or Behringer must be phony "astroturf" plants, whereas criticisms of Gibson, Fender, etc. are all considered valid. After all, the good foreign manufacturers would never behave unethically and disparage a US company.  :-\

Or were you actually suggesting the Agile fans were astroturfing Gibson?   :icon_jokercolor:

Of course, implying the "other guys" statements are suspect, while pretending your own are unassailable, is a classic form of manipulation.

Sorry, but I don't buy into conspiracy theories. If someone sounds like a fanboy, I discount their opinions. Likewise, if someone sounds like a hater. If someone can't give balanced criticism, I disregard them.

Please note that I'm neither endorsing nor critiquing any person, company or opinion here. Only pointing out what I see as a slippery slope...
 
AprioriMark said:
Who cares if the pic is reversed, really.  If we're not getting EXACT pics of the EXACT guitar we're gonna buy anyway... it's just a representation, right?
Click to expand...

I think it depends on the item in question. For instance, when they sell "B" stock, he usually has accurate pictures of the blems. Most of the time, the blems look like shipping damage, like dents in the neck wood or dings in the finish. Those wouldn't exist at the manufacturer, I wouldn't think.
 
drewfx said:
Unfortunately this leads us into the conspiracy theorist's never never land:

Criticisms of products made by companies like Agile or Behringer must be phony "astroturf" plants, whereas criticisms of Gibson, Fender, etc. are all considered valid. After all, the good foreign manufacturers would never behave unethically and disparage a US company.  :-\

Or were you actually suggesting the Agile fans were astroturfing Gibson?   :icon_jokercolor:

Of course, implying the "other guys" statements are suspect, while pretending your own are unassailable, is a classic form of manipulation.

Sorry, but I don't buy into conspiracy theories. If someone sounds like a fanboy, I discount their opinions. Likewise, if someone sounds like a hater. If someone can't give balanced criticism, I disregard them.

Please note that I'm neither endorsing nor critiquing any person, company or opinion here. Only pointing out what I see as a slippery slope...
Click to expand...

Your points are well-taken, although I wouldn't call it the "conspiracy theorist's never never land"; it's exactly the land they want to live in. That is, it's not a fantasy for them. I can easily see where my theory could be considered a conspiracy, and I must stress that it's only my theory; I have no facts whatsoever to back it up. But, I do have adherents <grin> Of course, that doesn't give it any credibility.

Still, there are some actual facts that easily support such a theory. A great number of people, far more than you would expect for any particular product, make unreasonable arguments and criticisms with little or no basis in reality, often without any experience with the product, and often disregarding similar situations with other manufacturers. For instance, it's nearly a capitol crime that Bugera manufactures their amplifiers in China, but it's ok that Fender, Marshall, Egnator, Peavey, Kustom, et al do. What's up with that?

And why are Grover tuners a Good Thing on Gibson guitars, but they suck on Agiles? Grovers are all made in China. And I'll bet you a dollar to a donut hole that the TOM bridges and tailpieces Gibson uses are from there, too. But, it's ok for them. Same with the electronics. There are no pots, capacitors, resistors, etc. made in the USA. None. They all come from the Pacific rim. Why is it ok for Gibson to use them, but not Agile? And what about wood? Why is it ok for Gibson to import maple from Canada, but nobody else can? Why can they import mahogany from wherever, but nobody else can? Why is it ok for them to use CNC machines to cut out and rout bodies and necks, but nobody else can? Gibson has been screwing everybody for years, and most people have just been smiling and saying "thank you, sir, may I please have another?"

So, somebody comes out with an amp or guitar that's just as good or better than the rapists have been foisting on everybody, and suddenly we start hearing about how lame those products are. Then, the people who actually have the products come out and say how wonderful they are, and are shouted down. There may be other explanations, but two come to mind with little or no thought:

1. The people who got raped are loathe to admit it, and
2. The rapists are disparaging their competition

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see what's going on. It may not be a "conspiracy", in that there's no central planning, but the end result is the same. The major player's business models are being attacked, and they don't like it. They have a lot of influence, so they wield it. I know I would. You don't buy a gun to start a conversation with a mugger.
 
texicus said:
Superlizard said:
3497688028_36a7302177.jpg
Click to expand...

Holy cow.  That's what I'm talking about...I might have to start looking into these.
Click to expand...

Seriously. You can have them for practically front-pocket money. Believe what you want from the adherents or detractors; there's little or no risk involved in buying one. Fun part is, if you've always wanted a Les Paul, it's pretty painless to find out what it's like to live with one. If you don't like it, there's almost no loss. You can always flip it to someone starting out and even if you only get 50% back, you only lose $150 or so. Try that with a Gibson. They'll always sell, too, but you're going to lose one helluva lot more than $150.
 
Cagey said:
drewfx said:
Unfortunately this leads us into the conspiracy theorist's never never land:

Criticisms of products made by companies like Agile or Behringer must be phony "astroturf" plants, whereas criticisms of Gibson, Fender, etc. are all considered valid. After all, the good foreign manufacturers would never behave unethically and disparage a US company.  :-\

Or were you actually suggesting the Agile fans were astroturfing Gibson?   :icon_jokercolor:

Of course, implying the "other guys" statements are suspect, while pretending your own are unassailable, is a classic form of manipulation.

Sorry, but I don't buy into conspiracy theories. If someone sounds like a fanboy, I discount their opinions. Likewise, if someone sounds like a hater. If someone can't give balanced criticism, I disregard them.

Please note that I'm neither endorsing nor critiquing any person, company or opinion here. Only pointing out what I see as a slippery slope...
Click to expand...

Your points are well-taken, although I wouldn't call it the "conspiracy theorist's never never land"; it's exactly the land they want to live in. That is, it's not a fantasy for them. I can easily see where my theory could be considered a conspiracy, and I must stress that it's only my theory; I have no facts whatsoever to back it up. But, I do have adherents <grin> Of course, that doesn't give it any credibility.

Still, there are some actual facts that easily support such a theory. A great number of people, far more than you would expect for any particular product, make unreasonable arguments and criticisms with little or no basis in reality, often without any experience with the product, and often disregarding similar situations with other manufacturers. For instance, it's nearly a capitol crime that Bugera manufactures their amplifiers in China, but it's ok that Fender, Marshall, Egnator, Peavey, Kustom, et al do. What's up with that?

And why are Grover tuners a Good Thing on Gibson guitars, but they suck on Agiles? Grovers are all made in China. And I'll bet you a dollar to a donut hole that the TOM bridges and tailpieces Gibson uses are from there, too. But, it's ok for them. Same with the electronics. There are no pots, capacitors, resistors, etc. made in the USA. None. They all come from the Pacific rim. Why is it ok for Gibson to use them, but not Agile? And what about wood? Why is it ok for Gibson to import maple from Canada, but nobody else can? Why can they import mahogany from wherever, but nobody else can? Why is it ok for them to use CNC machines to cut out and rout bodies and necks, but nobody else can? Gibson has been screwing everybody for years, and most people have just been smiling and saying "thank you, sir, may I please have another?"

So, somebody comes out with an amp or guitar that's just as good or better than the rapists have been foisting on everybody, and suddenly we start hearing about how lame those products are. Then, the people who actually have the products come out and say how wonderful they are, and are shouted down. There may be other explanations, but two come to mind with little or no thought:

1. The people who got raped are loathe to admit it, and
2. The rapists are disparaging their competition

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see what's going on. It may not be a "conspiracy", in that there's no central planning, but the end result is the same. The major player's business models are being attacked, and they don't like it. They have a lot of influence, so they wield it. I know I would. You don't buy a gun to start a conversation with a mugger.
Click to expand...

Well put. I think we largely agree.  :headbang:

I just wanted to point out your original argument could be applied in ways you might not have considered (i.e. used to call any opinion one disagrees with into question), and that, when evaluating people's statements/criticisms, we need to apply the same standards to the positions we agree with and disagree with. But of course that doesn't mean we can't suspect or question the motives/logic/etc. of the people we might disagree with when appropriate - fair doesn't necessarily mean equal, it means "merited".
 
ORCRiST said:
I F-ING hate [Gibson]. Fugliest guitars this side of a Telecaster. Cagey, PM me these other 'music-oriented message boards' so that I might 'contribute' to the discussion. Losers.  :evil4:
Click to expand...

Hehe! No, I don't think so. Google is your friend, if you wanna go on a vendetta <grin>

And there's no reason to "hate" Gibson. They're just misguided. They could just as easily produce superfine products at reasonable prices, but their management doesn't know any better. There's no question that the talent to do so exists within the company. And look to Warmoth and Carvin to see that American labor isn't the problem. They produce superior products at reasonable prices. They're not as inexpensive as what can be had out of the Pacific rim, but the premium is tolerable enough that we can keep our friends, family and neighbors gainfully employed without suffering.
 
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