Ferrules in Lieu of a Neck Plate
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Cagey
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I think it's just an aesthetic thing. As far as I know, the only way to improve the attachment is to install threaded inserts in the neck and use machine screws to attach it to the body. They have a finer thread, so you get a tighter joint and better sustain. Plus, you can remove and reinstall the neck repeatedly without deteriorating the holes the way wood screws will.
Incidentally, you can do that with ferrules or a neck plate, whichever you prefer.
Incidentally, you can do that with ferrules or a neck plate, whichever you prefer.
ByteFrenzy
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One of the negatives of ferrules is you don't get to show off your custom engraved plate from Doug.
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swarfrat
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Beat me to it - I was going to say it's difficult to engrave them tiny little washers.
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OzziePete
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Cagey said:
I was renovating a Tele with a 22 fret board the other day & noticed that when I installed the humbucker in the neck position, I had to remove the neck to allow enough angle to get the pickguard in underneath the 22nd fret overhang..... I am also contemplating a mounting ring around the humbucker but now not so sure it will fit underneath that overhang?
But that had me thinking what you are saying here, there's only so many times you could remove the neck before the screw holes get worn, then you'd have to bore them out & glue in dowels to get a tighter hole working again. I think if you were planning on swapping out the neck pickup regularly you'd wanna think of improving the way the neck is secured or contemplate getting a neck without the overhang.
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OzziePete
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swarfrat said:
Maybe cut off the rim off four .38 cartridges for some real cool 'engraved' ferrules! :icon_jokercolor:
Cagey
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OzziePete said:
Right. I always put threaded inserts in my necks, even though I don't anticipate dismantling the guitars very often, if at all. It's just a better joint, and it's easy and inexpensive to do. But, for someone who likes to experiment with pickups or wiring schemes, I'd say it's an absolute necessity.
Or, you could do what you say - dump the 22nd fret and its associated fingerboard overhang. I'm not convinced it's such a necessary thing in the first place. It's impractical to play chords up there, and you can always stretch up/down from the 21st fret to hit individual notes.
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OzziePete
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Cagey said:
That seems a practical thing to do in preplanning, particularly if you are uncertain about the tone from the pickups or think you may have to regularly dismantle the guitar for work on it, if it becomes a road warrior guitar... I dunno about you and other players, but I rarely venture up as far as the 20-something fret zone, I ain't no shredder. So missing a 22nd fret wouldn't fuss me. Might upset a few who were brought up on 24 fret necks tho.
Preplanning a more trad neck with no overhang would seem more practical for someone who isn't keen to try inserts or ferrules too, I'm not so sure that installing those inserts is as easy as you imply.....
Cagey
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The insert trick isn't tough to do, but it does require a couple/few tools that not everybody keeps around. Mainly, you need a drill press and a Forstner bit, and perhaps an insert tool and variable speed drill motor as well. The insert tool and Forstner bit are only ~$10/ea., but the others could run a few bucks, and a press requires someplace to set up. Most shops would have all that stuff anyway, so your only cost is inserts and fasteners.
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Damon said:
8-32 x 1.75" SS
I suggest:
They're .375" (3/8") long, and require a .250" (1/4") diameter hole, which I drill .500" (1/2") to .562" (9/16") deep. The brass parts are less expensive, but trying to thread those into the hardwoods necks are made of is a real pain in the shorts.
I also strongly recommend you use a power driver, their part number 94110A120
You simply chuck one of those into a variable speed hand drill, and use it to slowly drive the WELL-WAXED inserts into the neck holes.
I've been using a 1/4" Forstner bit to drill the holes, but that's kinda tight. One more molecule thickness on that insert, and I suspect I'd be splitting neck wood. McMaster-Carr suggests an "F" sized bit. So, best you buy one of those if you don't have one laying around. If you want to order one from the same place I've got all the stuff from above, the cut page is here.
Cagey
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You're welcome.
I just noticed the McMaster-Carr site doesn't link very deeply; you end up having to do a bit of searching anyway once you get there. But, they do have a search engine of their own where you can just enter the part number and it takes you directly to the cut sheet, so here they are:
Threaded insert: 95807A100
Machine screws: 91802A204
Power driver: 94110A120
"F" Twist drill: 30595A36
I just noticed the McMaster-Carr site doesn't link very deeply; you end up having to do a bit of searching anyway once you get there. But, they do have a search engine of their own where you can just enter the part number and it takes you directly to the cut sheet, so here they are:
Threaded insert: 95807A100
Machine screws: 91802A204
Power driver: 94110A120
"F" Twist drill: 30595A36
Cagey said:
Is it just a matter of drilling an appropriately-sized hole and screwing them in? Does the insert stay in pretty securely? I'm concerned that it'll just screw in/out along with the bolt if everything isn't perfect...
Cagey
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It stays in very securely. That's why I recommend using the insertion tool, rather than a screwdriver. You really gotta reef on these things to get them in because they're cutting their own threads in dense hardwood, and I really can't see it even being possible to install them with a screwdriver. You just can't put enough force on them that way.
The internal threads the neck screws thread into are machine screw threads, so they're not super-tight like a wood screw. In fact, you can pretty much hand-tighten all the neck screws in with your fingers, and only use the screwdriver at the end to snug 'em up. So, there's no danger of backing the insert out with the screw.
The internal threads the neck screws thread into are machine screw threads, so they're not super-tight like a wood screw. In fact, you can pretty much hand-tighten all the neck screws in with your fingers, and only use the screwdriver at the end to snug 'em up. So, there's no danger of backing the insert out with the screw.
Hopefully last question on this matter for me: With the F-twist bit, is the Forstner still needed? I can't imagine why the inserts would need a flat bottomed hole so long as the depth is correct, so I'm guessing the Forstner is just to clean up the hole and make sure it's round as opposed to elliptical like you tend to get with twist bits? Thanks.
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Damon said:
I just like the Forstner because it cuts clean, round and relatively flat-bottomed holes. Since the first neck I tried all this on was a Warmoth that cost me in excess of $600, I was somewhat apprehensive about the whole thing and wanted as perfect a hole as I could drill in wood. I'm now at the point where if I had to start over, I'd either use brad points or regular twist drills. It's just not that critical. You have to use a drill press; I won't waver on that requirement. You need the depth control so you don't nail the back of your fretboard, and the holes have to be lined up parallel to the fasteners or they may gall or bind, or worse, pull the neck off center. But, otherwise, there's little cause for concern.
I did mention waxing the inserts before threading them, didn't I? Can't stress that strongly enough.
Also, I liked to clamp the neck heel in a wood vise. Not too tight - you might pop frets if you get too ambitious with the crank there - but a bit of a squeeze will keep the heel from spreading in width as the insert is threaded in. I don't know if that's a real problem or not, but I do it just in case.
And having started this one I will add my "final" two cents.
Any idea if Warmoth or the other neck sellers will drill the 1/4" hole are part of the order? Seems to me that if they are drilling the 1/8" (or so) holes for the wood screws, asking them to instead drill a 1/4" hole should not be a big deal.
Has anyone asked?
Any idea if Warmoth or the other neck sellers will drill the 1/4" hole are part of the order? Seems to me that if they are drilling the 1/8" (or so) holes for the wood screws, asking them to instead drill a 1/4" hole should not be a big deal.
Has anyone asked?
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