Fender 65 Super Blackface - your thoughts

[sully]

I am on the verge of buying a 1965 Super Reverb blackface for $1200. Its in slighly-less-than-mint condition. It had a complete service less than a year ago. I have verified the serials to be 65, although no telling if they are original to that amp or not.

My question - is this the right buy for me?

I know, hard for you to answer, so how about your thoughts on the matter?

I've only been playing guitar for two years or so. I do take lessons and play on average 1-2 hours per day, often more, rarely less. I do have a warmoth that I've yet to brag about here because I'm still getting to know it.

I've been playing on a crate gx-212 SS amp I picked up for $100. I was using a Korg pedalboard then picked up a used PodXT Live. I play in my garage primarily, with a jam session here and there with others who are much more experienced.

I've been looking at tube amps for some time now. I dig classic rock and blues the most, so fender has been what I am drawn to. I've played a fair number of fenders now. I was going to go with a Blues Jr, because of the size and output. They sound fine I suppose, but I think something I can grow into a little more might be better. I was then looking at some of the current offerings, Hot Rod variations or maybe a Princeton. The more I learned about them, the less I was liking the circuit board route, as I am capable of doing a lot of electronic work. So I started thinking about PTP, meaning vintage or DIY.

A friend of mine has numerous Fenders. He started talking about the fact that he really wished he would have just gotten a super years ago. He has a 68 silverface super now. I thought about this quite a bit. I played a 66 black and a 69 silver. Its hard to tell the difference for sure, but I would say the blackface had a certain quality I liked best.

So after a lot of researching about amps in general, and a lot of craigslist browsing, I found one to buy. But spare money doesn't come easy for me, and I really want to make a good purchase - once.

So what would anyones thoughts be? A super is way too loud for what I currently do which is mostly practice by myself. However, it can be turned down or there are various mods that can be used as well, not to mention a choke of some kind if needed.

My thought was if thats the sound I really like, it might be too big now, but offers me room to grow into. I'm not looking to start a band and gig all the time. I already have a job and a family and am long past the stage of dreaming about such things. I simply like to make music and hope at some point to be able to share that with others. In which case a larger amp would be beneficial.

Looking for thoughts and opinions. Not looking to be talked into or out of the purchase, just some different viewpoints I had not thought of, which allows me to make a decision with more information.

Thanks.

 

[TonyFlyingSquirrel]

Considering that it is indeed a vintage amp, and that you've only been playing for a couple of years, it might be considered a bit more than what you may be ready to spend for such a classic amp.
So much of this also depends on your application.

You may be able to get the same vibe for less with perhaps a Peavy Classic Series or one of Carvin's Bel Air or Nomad amps.

Personally, if I were to acquire an actual '65 Blackface, I wouldn't be gigging out with it, I'd have it in my studio for tracking.  Those amps are quite a tone treasure.

 

[sully]

Good points, and most I have considered already. One very strong factor is that with PTP I can learn to service it myself. I've experience with circuit boards and much prefer discrete components.

Aside from that aspect, you are right, its a lot of coin to drop at my stage. lol, but I am at that point in my life that I've already bought most of the things I "need", so extra money I make (doing odd jobs etc) can be devoted now to "toys". Funny how life works like that, but it does. Anyway, I only buy "affordable" to test and research (which is why I bought the crate). I'd rather buy quality but do the research and make a good decision.

Which is exactly why I made this thread. I spent about two years deciding to buy a Warmoth. Cagey was very kind and answered a LOT of questions and assembled/setup my guitar. The longer I use it, the more appreciative I am of not only the quality but also all the time I spent learning before I purchased (not to mention what a superb job he did on it for me). Any slight pangs of regret I first had disappear the more I get to know it.

And so the same applies here. Do the research, with an open mind, and make the best purchase possible. And your last comment, about these amps being a tone pleasure, is probably the number one factor in me thinking about such an amp. I find myself more and more being able to play something that actually sounds good to my ear. I am hoping a good amp will not mask any of my shortcomings, but actually expose them so I can work on them and improve them. Then when I hear some good vibe coming out, I know its real. And I really dig those times, they give you a satisfaction that the hard work is paying off.

I had no idea learning to play a guitar would be such a long and often frustrating process. Of course starting at 40 doesn't help lol, but there is definitely a lot to be said for "inspiration". And hearing yourself laying down some licks that actually sound like what you intended, on a great sounding amp, really does provide a ton of "inspiration". It does to me anyway.

Size is an issue I've been considering a lot as well. Its big. Right now its not a big deal as I rarely take an amp with me because the guys I jam with already have lots of gear. Volume level is the other thing I've thought a lot about. Cranking it up to saturation will not be common place I am quite sure.

Pros and cons everywhere. Now how to decide whats best is the problem lol.

Thanks for your thoughts.

 

[mayfly]

I am on the verge of buying a 1965 Super Reverb blackface for $1200

I only read this far.  If you have a use for an amp that powerful, you should get it.

 

[sully]

I only read this far.  If you have a use for an amp that powerful, you should get it.

Well, to be honest, thats what I was wondering about, and something that only experience can answer. Is it too powerful? What are the realistic downsides to that much volume if you don't have a place to play loud at?

I guess I was hoping for some replies from those who have been down that road, with some things to think about. For example, something like "dude, thats a really loud amp. Sure it sounds great, but when I had one I could not do this or that because blah blah. I ended up getting XYZ amp because it allowed me to do yada yada. I would have liked that other amp, but because of 123 it was just hard to work with".

Or maybe its the reverse, "thats a lot of amp there, but if you do this or that, or learn how to do that other thing, or hook some thinga-majiggy in front of it it really does stuff. Good stuff. Just don't expect bleck and it should be great"

I guess I'm saying I have found a good deal on an amp that I really like the sound of and really suits me in terms of being able to work on it myself, but am still entertaining whether or not its what I should get.

I'm just looking to glean some experience from those who have been there and done that

 

[mayfly]

Hmmm.  Alright - I've been there and done it.  A super sounds great - but it's a LOT of amp.  You need to be playing big clubs or larger stages to take advantage of that. 

I've used a super and a deluxe reverb.  The Deluxe was PLENTY loud enough in every club I've ever played at (200-500 people or so).  The super was too loud in those places.  and it's a lot heavier

If you want a blackface tone and you're not playing big clubs, get a Deluxe.

IMHO, YMMV, and all that.

Yours,
Trevor

 

[sully]

Thanks! That was exactly the type of thing I was hoping to find.

I've been mulling almost that very thing over. I've no experience to draw from though.

Where I live, if I ever get to that point, there are no clubs really. Primarily outdoor venues is what I would do.

Which begs the question (which cannot be answered by anyone but me I suppose) do I get a really nice vintage at a good price and then eventually get a smaller amp for daily use. Or get a really nice vintage small amp and later get another larger one. Problem is, I've no way to fully understand just how large I would or would not need, in either instance lol.

I've played tubes, and that was my downfall. I should have never done that then I could buy SS and not know the difference. But my word, many of the tube amps I have played through sound so darn good!

 

[Patrick from Davis]

I would also mention that with tube amps, vintage ones especially, they are like classic cars.  They need work: capacitors, proper tubes, biasing and so on.  You should make sure if you are letting someone work on it they are of proper caliber.  This makes them more expensive to maintain.  You shouldn't mod the hell out of them either, buy a clone if that is your intention.  However, a three prong plug, and the removal of the death capacitor is perfectly acceptable.  Just understand it is like a classic car, you can't really expect it to be a minivan after close to 50 years under it's belt.  I only say this because while it is a perfectly functional tool, it is also a piece of history, and deserves the proper respect.  My two cents.
Patrick

 

[bagman67]

You can put a mic in front of a smaller amp and run it through the PA.    No need for the larger ones unless you get to a point where you're collecting them for their own sake, or you have an actual real-world application for the big beastie. 

 

[sully]

@Patrick

I understand implicitly. I have no plans for any real mods other than simple ones like pulling the tube for one channel if I don't use it, simple things like that which aren't really mods IMO. The reason to get a vintage is so that I can work on them. Sourcing caps/resistors is not an issue. Soldering is not an issue. Biasing, well thats something new to learn. I am not collecting or anything. I just would prefer an amp that I can maintain and that has a sound I really like. That just happens to be an older amp lol.

@Bagman

I've heard, been told and read that many times. I was originally setting out for a low watt amp, like a blues jr. After playing through one for awhile I had no qualms really. Until I played through a super that is. Just so much fuller and, to me, better sounding. Not that I have to have that. I'd much rather make a smart purchase that fits the most bills than get the holy grail of tone and only fit a couple bills.

Its not an easy choice thats for sure. Way too many options and variables. But I have no problem changing my mind either. A closed mind doesn't learn much and I like to learn, especially before I spend money

EDIT: where are my manners? Thanks so much for giving your opinions and thoughts!

 

[bagman67]

I feel your pain, Sully.  I had a 100 watt Yamaha T100C for a few years that sounded phenomenal when wound up - but I had no real venue to wind it up in.  Every once in a while when I knew my neighbors were away, and the family was out of the house, I would rattle the rafters, and get that special god-like feeling. 


Maybe you could look at a lower-wattage head or a combo that will allow you to run an extension cab. That way you can replicate the 4x10 goodness, or drive a somewhat more genteel open-backed 1x12.  Or anything else, for that matter - I've heard awesome tones come out of a 1x15 cab, too, for example.  And of course the Marshall-style 4x12 is the Grail for some folks. 

 

[sully]

I feel your pain, Sully.  I had a 100 watt Yamaha T100C for a few years that sounded phenomenal when wound up - but I had no real venue to wind it up in.  Every once in a while when I knew my neighbors were away, and the family was out of the house, I would rattle the rafters, and get that special god-like feeling. 


Maybe you could look at a lower-wattage head or a combo that will allow you to run an extension cab. That way you can replicate the 4x10 goodness, or drive a somewhat more genteel open-backed 1x12.  Or anything else, for that matter - I've heard awesome tones come out of a 1x15 cab, too, for example.  And of course the Marshall-style 4x12 is the Grail for some folks.

Thats pretty much why I started this thread. This place is unique in that there is hardly ever any bashing or ridiculing, just a lot of positive attitudes. And people who have "been there and done that". So, before I rush headlong into what I think sounds flat awesome, I thought I would stop lurking for awhile and utilize this resource.

Maybe not so much to find what I should do in regards to what amp/head/cab/combo/etc would be best for me, but just to see if I need to take a chill pill and think things through a bit more.

Theres certainly indication to me anyway that I should. Don't know exactly what direction to redirect myself of course, but the food for thought supplied has already got me thinking - a lot lol.

 

[Tonar8352]

The first thing I would be concerned about is checking the originality of the transformers and if it has a quad of Alnico CTS speakers. If that is all in order; BUY IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

As far as volume goes you can use a Super anywhere if you know how to set the controls on it.
Turn all the tone controls to 0 then turn it up to 7 of 8 on the volume. Guess what? You will have no volume coming out of the amp. Now set your guitar on the neck pickup and start plunking the low E string and begin turning the Bass up until it start blatting or "farting out" and back it off a hair. After this you can begin mixing your treble and mid's in raising it to the volume you prefer.

I own a few amps  :laughing7: I have played more than a few amps  :laughing7: and I love my Super Reverb the best. 

 

[Kostas]

If it's in good condition buy it. The price is good.

Keep it for life, great amp.

Easy to fix/modify. Most techs have worked on a Fender. These things never die.

I'd pay the price just for the great cleans and the fact that you're getting a 4x10 cab with it.

Even if you can't open it enough to distort you have the best clean platform for a booster/OD. There are some amazing pedals on the market nowdays.

Buy it and  :rock-on:

 

[sully]

LOL!

@Tonar and Kostas

Those are pretty much the arguments I have in favor of getting a super.

I have photos of the serial on the chassis and the tube chart. They match to 65. Don't know about the transformer, but I can write it down prior to purchasing and check it out. It is in very good shape, no obvious wear on tolex or the grill. Front panel has little wear at all. On the backside, the codes on the speaker chassis don't match to any know vendor, but are the classic CTS Alnico look with rectangular ends and the fender part number. Have read the code could be under the sticker. They look exactly like every other picture of that type of speaker for that amp I have seen. I've scrutinized over this for almost two weeks and am pretty convinced it is a good buy.

I played a 66 BF locally and the guy would only come to 1450. It was nice sounding, but had a lot more wear than the one I am currently looking at. A lot more. I could go with a 69 SF for a grand or another for 1100, or even some SF's with mods and different speakers etc for even less. However, this is by far the best on I have seen for the money.

Regarding the volume levels, thats good news if it doesn't sacrifice anything. And again, the type of information I was looking for.

Pedal wise, I figured I could do the distortion/OD, but that tube breakup is often sweet on these units, so thats one of the reasons I am still considering if a super is right or not.

Thanks for the comments again. Such a decisions I tell ya.

Check it out. (trying to attach a pic here)

Edit: oh well, wasn't clear how to attach, so did not work.

 

[Jet-Jaguar]

Probably just as well the pictures didn't show.

I don't know enough about amps to answer your amp question, but I can give you this advice: Until the deal is secured, don't link to it.

 

[sully]

Probably just as well the pictures didn't show.

I don't know enough about amps to answer your amp question, but I can give you this advice: Until the deal is secured, don't link to it.

lol good advice for sure. But no, they are local to my machine and are like a thousand other photos of any BF amp out there. I was trying to attache them, but it wasn't liking me.

Thanks though.

 

[MikeW]

I think the Supers sound great, no doubt. The one issue that I've had with them is the lack of a master volume. It is tough to get to that edge of breakup sound without having to crank them.

You might want to consider getting a booster pedal to put in front of it. I recently got an Xotic RC Booster and love it. My Legacy 3 has a clean channel that's really nice, really clean, but, like the Super, hard to get it to break up without cranking it. The booster pushes the volume of the input signal up just enough that it starts to breakup without having to shake the house down. Definitely one of the best pedals that I've ever got. You might want to consider one after you pick up the Super.

 

[sully]

Thanks for the suggestion. If I go ahead with the super, it could be this weekend. Will see I guess. If I get it that will be a good tip to keep in mind for the volume issue.

On another note, maybe someone has some input on this. A player I know has a 69 SF. He loves the tone but evidentily it was not pumping out enough volume for some recent gigs. He has many fender amps, but this spring picked up this super.

Anyway he took it in to get a tune-up and the tech found he had some 35ohm jukebox speakers. Said someone before him was probably recording with it and it allowed him to push the amp to breakup earlier and in fact was more like a 10watt instead of 40watt.

I understand enough theory to get that, more resistance causing the amp to work harder and such, but was not aware one would actually desire such a deviance from the normal values or any significant length of time.

In any event, whether that is a legitimate method or not is up in the air, but it was quite fascinating to learn.

 

[Re-Pete]

Thanks for the suggestion. If I go ahead with the super, it could be this weekend. Will see I guess. If I get it that will be a good tip to keep in mind for the volume issue.

On another note, maybe someone has some input on this. A player I know has a 69 SF. He loves the tone but evidentily it was not pumping out enough volume for some recent gigs. He has many fender amps, but this spring picked up this super.

Anyway he took it in to get a tune-up and the tech found he had some 35ohm jukebox speakers. Said someone before him was probably recording with it and it allowed him to push the amp to breakup earlier and in fact was more like a 10watt instead of 40watt.

I understand enough theory to get that, more resistance causing the amp to work harder and such, but was not aware one would actually desire such a deviance from the normal values or any significant length of time.

In any event, whether that is a legitimate method or not is up in the air, but it was quite fascinating to learn.

I wouldn't think that mismatching ohm ratings to make the amp work harder = giving an earlier amp distortion, is the way to go. Personally, I wouldn't consider that practice a legitimate way to achieve volume attenuation. If I owned your friend's amp, I'd have that amp's componentry checked out for abnormal wear & tear.

(I will add that I am not an amp/electronics expert like some here, and having been zapped by errant voltage when I was a kid, am very suspicious about modding anything like a guitar amp - and am wary when I hear of stories like this.)