Leaderboard

Enamel Clear over Dye

Timmsie95

Hero Member
Messages
890
So I'm planning on using Angelus Jet Black Leather Dye on my guitar. My question is, can I use Dupli-Color "Perfect Match Clear Top Coat"? It says it's an acrylic lacquer. I'm just wondering if I can put that over the dye? I plan on letting the dye dry for a week or so, but will it run at all?
99984738_dpl_BCL0125_pri_larg.jpg
 
Yep, that'll do it.  Be advised, that stuff is pretty expensive for the quantity you get.  You'll want to lay down many coats - ten is not outrageous to consider, and fifteen is better.  The reason being, you will need to wetsand and polish, and you need a thick enough film that you can go through those steps without getting down to bare wood and potentially burning through color.  Other lacquer products might provide better coverage, but you're sill facing the same problem, irrespective of lacquer choice.  You'll ultimately save a buck or two a can (for the volume of solids that will ultimately remain once solvents boil off and the lacquer cures) if you go with Deft or another consumer-grade non-automotive product.  It's not unheard of to burn through three or more cans on a body, but YMMV.


If you want to seal the body before applying that acrylic lacquer topcoat (hint:  Not a bad idea), use shellac.  I have had great luck with Zinnsser Bullseye in the rattle can.  It dries fast - you can apply shellac, do a scuff sand at 30 minutes to an hour with 320 grit paper or sanding pad, and then get busy laying down clear topcoats.  A scuff sanding between clear coats is also a good idea.  Wipe with naphtha so you get rid of dust and finger grease each time, also.


Once you have built up all the clearcoats, leave it the hell alone for at least a few weeks.  Seriously, hang it in a closet out of sight, let the lacquer cure, and don't screw with it.  Don't push your luck. In a couple weeks, you can start with your wetsanding and then polishing phases. 




NB:  WHen I say NAPHTHA, I do not mean, and expressly exclude, ACETONE. Acetone will dissolve your lacquer on contact, and must be avoided at all costs, unless your intent is to start over from scratch, in which case, hey, go nuts.


Now, all of this assumes you have a steady temperature between the upper sixties and mid-eighties, and a VERY WELL VENTILATED work area with low humidity.  DON'T SPRAY LACQUER IN YOUR HOUSE, ESPECIALLY WITH THE HEAT ON, unless you like (a) dying from inhaling the fumes and (b) letting your corpse be cremated in the flames of your home.  Although you could also wear a respirator to protect you from the fumes, and be burned alive instead.  Whee!


I note that you live in Ontario, Canada, and the temperature in Peterborough right now is 9 degrees Fahrenheit (-13 C).  So you might also consider an alternative, to wit: wipe-on and spray-on poly products or water-based finishes.  Minwax has a horde of good stuff, as do Behlen and others.


Words to live by:


1.  Practice your finishing schedule (including the color steps) on scrap lumber of the same species.


2.  Every shortcut leads through the flames of Hell, and you WILL NOT escape the demons' pitchforks on the way through.
 
I plan on spraying in an indoor/outdoor room attached to my house, and hanging it inside to dry. should be away from any heat sources, so it should be okay. I won't be spraying for a few months, so the temperature shouldn't be an issue.
 
Deft cures pretty soft. It sprays great, covers very well, and polishes up beautifully. You could wait months and your hardware will still sink into the finish. YMMV :dontknow:
 
Timmsie95 said:
I plan on spraying in an indoor/outdoor room attached to my house, and hanging it inside to dry. should be away from any heat sources, so it should be okay. I won't be spraying for a few months, so the temperature shouldn't be an issue.

Just to be sure you understand, heat sources aren't necessarily a Bad Thing, but when you're spraying the stuff the acetone the lacquer is reduced with is highly combustible. Not just flammable, combustible. It also tends to concentrate downward, so low flames like pilot lights in water heaters, furnaces, portable heaters, etc. can set it off. You probably don't have to worry about burning up; the explosion will knock you out first so you won't feel the flames consuming you  :laughing7:

Other than that, the temperature/humidity is something to be concerned about. Usually, finishers talk about "The Rule of 65" which says don't shoot lacquer below 65 degrees or above 65% relative humidity. Those are DNE (Do Not Exceed) numbers you don't want to be too close to. You can get closer to them if you're experienced enough to know how to read your results and use retarder properly. But, ideally, you want to be in the 70s temperature-wise and in the 50s or less humidity-wise, especially if you're using rattle-cans and can't change your chemistry. Thermo/hydrometers are relatively inexpensive (figure $10-$30 or so) and are a fantastic investment. They can save you a lotta tears and wasted time/money over finish work that didn't behave the way you expected it to.
 
My house usually sits around 71-72 degrees, but I'm not sure about humidity. It is pretty damn dry n here though :laughing7:

So as long as i spray it away from my furnace and got water heater (basically my entire basement) the fire show shouldn't be a problem?
 
What if it is a problem? You may not live to pass along the lesson.

The risk is high. The payoff is low. I wouldn't do it. It's not worth it by any stretch of the imagination.

The way to paint indoors is to have a well-ventilated booth. Unless you're going to paint a lot, there's just no way to make that pay off.
 
I'll probably be spraying it outside (it will be warmer by the time I'm at that stage), and not beside a camp fire...  :laughing7:
 
If you have a garage, that's a good option. Just leave the bay door open. You'll still need a respirator, but they're relatively inexpensive. Don't worry too much about dust/dirt, you're going to have to sand the finish anyway, but you don't wanna push it. Try to avoid breezy days. You just don't want to be out in the sun. It'll blister the hell out of the finish right before your eyes.
 
okay, thanks. If I spray when it's around 60-6-5 degrees out, but I bring it in to dry, will that be okay? I've also heard if I put the can in warm water first it's better?
 
When it comes to temperature/humidity, it's not so much where you store it as where you shoot it. You want the material to behave itself as it's applied. Once it's on, you can move the object wherever you'd like. The temperature and humidity of the hanging/curing area will affect how long it takes for the material to harden to where it's workable. There again, moderation is key. You don't want it too cool/humid, or it'll take forever, and you don't want it too warm/dry or it's liable to distort.

If you shoot in low temperatures like you describe, the vehicle/reducer doesn't boil off very fast, so it's difficult to get even coats without sags and/or runs. Lacquer is a pretty low-viscosity material when it's in its fluid state as it consists mostly of solvents, so coats are thin and easily over-applied relative to their viscosity. You need it to flash over quickly so it'll hold its shape and not move around much, if at all.

It's been said before but bears repeating: there are no shortcuts. You must be patient. This is going to take 6 or 8 weeks, easily. If you try to cheat temperature, time, humidity, viscosity, chemistry, finish thickness, etc., you will be sorry. You'll end up with a bad finish that you'll either have to live with or do over. Neither prospect is attractive.

If this is your first rodeo, it's well worth the trouble to get some scrap pieces of lumber and get them in roughly the same surface prep condition as your target piece, then practice on them. You will learn a lot. You may end up finishing and re-finishing them more than your actual project.
 
I'm sure you can. You just have to be patient and follow the rules.

I'll tell ya, though. Unless you really want to become a finishing guy or you want a finish you simply cannot get from Warmoth, you're much better off saving your pennies a little longer so you can pay Warmoth to do it. For one thing, they're well set up for it and enjoy certain economies of scale, not to mention having a lotta talent floating around. Plus, they use polyurethane which is a very durable finish that will look good for a long time. Also, it'll be perfect and you won't have to lift a finger. Finally, it's not expensive. They only charge $225 for most finishes, which is really a bargain. I've finished a number of guitars over the years, and I'd never do it for someone else for that kind of money. It's just too much work.
 
Yeah, for warmoth builds I'm definitely getting them to finish the body, but I'm planning to do a "Precision Guitar Kits" build also, and they charge a bit more to finish.
 
A related question, would Minwax poly work on top of a Wudtone water-based dye or am I asking for trouble there?
 
I think that would or could work - poly over wudtone, but I would test it on scrap first or contact wudtone to see what they say.

 
I think Wudtone would probably put the phone down on me. They're quite precious about how their finish "lets the wood breathe" or some such nonsense.
 
My friend used aniline dye and he used minwax poly (spray, not wipe-on) and it was fine, never used wudtone.
 
Wudtone is more like a wax finish than anything. The dyes they use are standard and you can put anything on top of them, but the actual solid colours & clear coats can't have anything put on top. Since the only part of their system you can paint over is the deep colour/dye layer, and that's a common wood dye, you may as well skip Wudtone and go buy a wood dye from a cheaper source.

I really like Wudtone's products, but they're simply not for mixing finish materials.
 
Back
Top