DPDT on/on/on vs. on/off/on

[reluctant-builder]

To be honest, I very much want to learn why and how things work the way they do, and how they are mechanically represented, as opposed to graphically or pictorially represented.

However, because I have no formal instruction and there often seems to be a derisive attitude towards the ignorant -- regardless of their yen to dispel their own ignorance -- I only understand the wiring diagrams and therefore they are my only recourse.

 

[reluctant-builder]

This schematic appears to contradict your switch. You have two capacitors joined to the same spot (Which is very likely to be a ground, as the center terminal of Gibson style toggle switches almost always are, but I better not make that assumption.), but the schematic does not indicate for the capacitors to be connected.

I believe the schematic does contradict how the switch is actually wired, because the wiring diagram you made based upon that same schematic also differed from how the switch is actually wired.

Most likely, that schematic is from the original, made in Sweden Swedes that ceased production in 1983. I have a Chinese-made, modern Swede, which surely has some differences from the originals, of which the tone filter seems to be one.

 

[Cagey]

...there often seems to be a derisive attitude towards the ignorant...

You will find in most specialized fields that there is a large population of practitioners who for some reason (most likely fear) are unwilling to share their knowledge. The fear exists because as with most things, the more you know, the more you recognize what you don't know. That can be more than a little unnerving and intimidating when you're considered an expert. Plus, there's the sense of diminished value if hard-won knowledge becomes common. Supply and demand doesn't just apply to material goods after all. But, the unenlightened believe that if you supply everybody with knowledge, the demand goes down.

Except that's not how it works. Sharing knowledge raises everyone's ability, so there are more contributions to the knowledge base and the cycle continues in an infinite loop. The demand never diminishes. So, the knowledge base grows exponentially as one person teaches two, who each teach two, who each teach two, etc. Lather, rinse, repeat. It's why Linux is such a great OS, and all the F/OSS that runs on it is so good. It's just people helping people helping people ad infinitum.

But, human nature isn't always at its best. Some of the stupidest moves I've ever seen have been made by highly intelligent and well-educated people. Best thing to do is remain calm. We're not all batshite insane <grin>

 

[reluctant-builder]

The only real sense I can make of that schematic is that the horizontal bar across the bottom represents the ground. I can see how the pickups go to ground, the volume and tone pots and the 0.015 uF capacitor. I guess how the line from the switch to the pot continues through to the ground line depicts that the switch is grounded, same thing with that right angle path where the 0.022 uF caps approach the tone knobs.

I still can't divine how the tone filter works, and I don't see the grounding represented there except in that the line connected the top portions of each switch (and the reverse depiction of the pup toggle) in the schematic follows the pup lines to their volume pots and through to ground.

I don't get why the common doesn't run from the center of the switches to their destinations (pup toggle to tone filter and tone filter to output jack). At least, they don't appear to, the way I interpret the schematic ... which I do so with a dearth of knowledge. :sad1:

 

[Cagey]

That tone filter switch is a curious thing. In the position drawn, the pickup output (post volume/tone control) has to get through a .0047uf cap as if it's a coupling cap, but it seems awfully small for the frequencies involved. I think it's a "low cut" filter, which would make your signal a bit thin. In the center position, it's non-existent (everything goes straight through), and in the low position you're applying a .015uf cap to ground, which would act as something of a low-pass filter, which simply shunts high frequencies to ground.

It is, as I expected, a marketing ploy rather than anything practical. You get a switch that definitely does something, useful or not, but is more simply and easily accomplished with the existing tone controls. If it was me, I'd find a way to get rid of it. Bare minimum, wire around it and leave the switch in place as a placebo. If anyone asks what it is, tell 'em it releases poisonous gas at the dog pound and that's why you don't ever touch it <grin>

 

[line6man]

In the position drawn, the pickup output (post volume/tone control) has to get through a .0047uf cap as if it's a coupling cap, but it seems awfully small for the frequencies involved. I think it's a "low cut" filter, which would make your signal a bit thin.

It is indeed a high-pass filter. Rickenbacker used to use 0.0047uF caps in series with the bridge pickups of their 4000 series basses, if I recall. To what degree this is useful is questionable.
We're almost certainly talking about a different coil impedance on the pickups, and obviously, a guitar player is going to want different things from his tone than a bass player. In any case, to my knowledge, most of those Ric players just shorted their caps out, or added switches to bypass them.

 

[reluctant-builder]

I found, with the toggle set to the 4700 pF cap that the tone was significantly brighter. The bypassed filter also produced a good tone, but the 0.015 uF side of the tone filter created horrible mud that was totally useless.

I'm thinking of putting an alternative switch in place of this thing. I'm open to suggestions. Coil-tap? Series / off / Out-of-Phase? I've got some mini-toggles I could use, or I could repurpose the stock switch. I'd love to hear any ideas you all may have.

Thanks.

 

[line6man]

I found, with the toggle set to the 4700 pF cap that the tone was significantly brighter. The bypassed filter also produced a good tone, but the 0.015 uF side of the tone filter created horrible mud that was totally useless.

I'm thinking of putting an alternative switch in place of this thing. I'm open to suggestions. Coil-tap? Series / off / Out-of-Phase? I've got some mini-toggles I could use, or I could repurpose the stock switch. I'd love to hear any ideas you all may have.

Thanks.

Coil tapping requires tapped pickups.

Phase inversion is usually useless, but you could try it if you want.

Capacitor value selection is useful.

Coil splitting can also be useful.

Some like killswitches.

You can easily do a LPF/bypass/HPF switch with a DPDT On/On/On, though.

 

[Cagey]

I don't know. The poisonous gas thing is intriguing, so I keep coming back to that <grin>

Your pickups aren't wired to allow for coil cuts/taps, so that's out. You can already put them in parallel with the existing pickup selector switch, so no joy there. Wiring them out-of-phase will just attenuate your signal to near useless due to cancellation.

Maybe fill the hole vacated by the useless tone switch with a miniature strobe light. Only turn it on when the guitar is in its stand, next to which you can have a little poster...

By the time they're done figuring out what it says, you'll be back from your beer/cigarette break.

Or, just wire around it and make up a fairy tale about the switch. People love fairy tales. Literally billions of people believe in them.

 

[stubhead]

 

[reluctant-builder]

Y'all are a bunch of real clowns. :laughing7:

I totally forgot about the lack of conductors thus rendering coil tapping / splitting moot. I guess I'll either keep what I had or try the On/On/On switch suggestion Joe made (though I suspect that was what the switch was originally doing ... but I don't know.) I guess I need to buy an On/On/On mini-toggle, though, since there's only room for tiny little capacitors in that cavity with the original honkin' switch.

 

[reluctant-builder]

Can the high- / low-pass filter only be accomplished with an On/On/On DPDT? I have a few On/Off/On switches ... which, now, I have no idea for what I'll use them.

If someone could please tell me which kinds of mini-toggles are used for which applications, I'd very much appreciate it.

 

[line6man]

Can the high- / low-pass filter only be accomplished with an On/On/On DPDT? I have a few On/Off/On switches ... which, now, I have no idea for what I'll use them.

If someone could please tell me which kinds of mini-toggles are used for which applications, I'd very much appreciate it.

The HPF/Bypass/LPF switching can be accomplished with a DPDT On/On/On, as shown in the wiring diagram I posted earlier.

 

[reluctant-builder]

Yes. I do understand that.

Additionally, though, I'd like to know for what purposes each type of DPDT is useful ... if someone wouldn't mind sharing that.

Also, can an On/Off/On be modified to be an On/On/On?

 

[line6man]

Yes. I do understand that.

Additionally, though, I'd like to know for what purposes each type of DPDT is useful ... if someone wouldn't mind sharing that.

Also, can an On/Off/On be modified to be an On/On/On?

There are quite a few things you can do with DPDT switches, more than I can count off the top of my head. On/Ons are good for any two combination of two coils, or two pickups, series/parallel, with or without a pickup selector, phase inversion, active/passive switching, with or without a tone pot in passive mode, killswitches, capacitance selection,etc. On/On/Ons are good for pickup selection, series/split/parallel,  HPF/Bypass/LPF, capacitance selection, etc. On/Off/Ons are good for north coil/series/south coil.

Switching patterns cannot be modified.

 

[reluctant-builder]

So, what do the guts of an On/On/On DPDT look like versus an On/OFF/On?

My Super Swede has a mini toggle that has only two positions ... when up, it splits (or taps, I don't know which is technically more correct) the coils of both pickups, when down the humbuckers act as normal. It has six terminals. Two are soldered with gobs, the middle two each receive the white and green wires of either pickup, and the remaining two have a bus wire soldered to them that runs along the backs of all four pots. No idea, though, if the switch is On/Off or On/On.

I just. Don't. Get it.

Yet.

Further elucidation required, please.

 

[line6man]

So, what do the guts of an On/On/On DPDT look like versus an On/OFF/On?

My Super Swede has a mini toggle that has only two positions ... when up, it splits (or taps, I don't know which is technically more correct) the coils of both pickups, when down the humbuckers act as normal. It has six terminals. Two are soldered with gobs, the middle two each receive the white and green wires of either pickup, and the remaining two have a bus wire soldered to them that runs along the backs of all four pots. No idea, though, if the switch is On/Off or On/On.

I just. Don't. Get it.

Yet.

Further elucidation required, please.

Think about it for a minute, a two position On/Off switch cannot be double throw.

That is a series/split coil switch for both pickups.  DPDT On/On.

 

[line6man]

Btw, something to remember if you ever order switches from Mouser or something- if a switch's "on" or "off" function is in parenthesis, such as "(On)-Off-(On)," or "(On)/On," that means the switching is momentary, rather than latching. You generally don't see momentary switches on guitars, but they have their uses. For example, I believe people use On-Off-(On) switches for sustainers, for momentary or latching from the same switch.

 

[Updown]

So, what do the guts of an On/On/On DPDT look like versus an On/OFF/On?

I just. Don't. Get it.

Yet.

Further elucidation required, please.

:icon_scratch: May-be this will help  http://www.kpsec.freeuk.com/components/switch.htm

 

[stubhead]

A momentary switch on a guitar is most famously used to do a quick on-off-on-off kind of staccato effect, often when bending a string (or un-bending it). It's been around a long time; Tom Morello and Buckethead have a switch wired for it' but the old fashioned way to "stutter" was to set the selector switch on a four-knob setup in-between, turn one pickup's volume all the way on and the other all the way off, then just nudging the selector switch would shut off the volume momentarily.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EPBYbIOD55M
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ULvevQmK4Yo