doubts on finishing mahogany body with koa top

[eiopago]

hi,
I`m going to buy a mahogany body with a koa laminated top from warmoth.
i`m thinking of darkening both woods with some stain (brown maybe) as I don`t like
any red shades (which I think i`m gonna get if I use mahogany or red stains).
I have spent some time reading a lot of posts on the forum and I understand that I have 2 choices on the products that I can use (I want to stay away from tung oil, Danish oil etc etc), either water or oil based grain filler, sealer, stain and lacquer.
my 1st question is:
what`s best to use for me, water or oil considering the combination of woods in my project?
and is it better to apply the stain first and then the filler or to mix them both and apply the stained filler?

I also understand that if i use the stained filler, the wood must be protected from the stain or sanded completely back to the field after the filler is applied, so it’s best to seal the wood first with a coat of lacquer and then apply the stained filler.
I read that the lacquer will leave the grain open and there is a fair amount of sanding involved.
isn’t it dangerous to sand so much on a koa top which is basically 1/8 of an inch?
will this leave the koa top too thin in the end?
I mean, it will be safe on the back and sides of the body (mahogany) but on the laminated koa top?

how should I go about this?

thanks a lot in advance

 

[bpmorton777]

just a couple of thoughts. Ive gotten a lot of help here from the more experienced builders like Jack, CB and WillyK. As far as my own experience is concerned:

1) Mahogany is a pain in the ass to grain fill. Ive filled my body  probably 8 times with not good results and then filled it again and left most of the grain filler on and just smoothing it out with sanding spounges. It looked pretty good that way except that stain will not take to wood covered in grain filler...so I had to sand it back again. I dont have any power sanding equipment so each sand back is like 4 hours. I hate sanding now!

2) As Jack pointed out to me, if you are going to fill with colored grian filler, you will also need a can of the clear stuff too as the colored grain filler will have to be sanded back a lot to get an even look all over the guitar. A thick coat of the clear grain filler works well except that it dosnt let the stain pennatrait at all. Just fine if you are going with nitro shaders and clear coating over that though.

somebody elese will probably have some better advise than mine. read up here on the message board before you get to the work.

Brian

 

[eiopago]

right,
so the wood won`t take the stain well if i first apply the filler and the stain.
what about the opposite way, stain first then fill ?
i don`t necessary have to mix the filler with stain, it was just an idea, maybe wrong, i just want a safe way to stain the wood and the use some clear glossy coat at the end.
there is a thread on this forum where a guitar with the same wood combination is showed, and i`d like exactly the same finish but a bit darker :
http://www.unofficialwarmoth.com/index.php?topic=416.0

 

[bpmorton777]

yes, stain the wood first.

here is a link to a thread about my staining problems and some pics of my guitar body stained in Minwax Red Mahogany.

http://www.unofficialwarmoth.com/index.php?topic=3682.0

Brian

 

[eiopago]

what would be the best choice, water or oil based products.
also, if i used water based stain on the bare wood, can i use an oil based sealer, filler and then top coat with a poly clear gloss ?

 

[jackthehack]

1.) Mahogany is a royal pain in the ass to fill; counterintuitive as the pores are so small, but it's too easy to sand the filler back out of the pores.
2.) If filling with colored filler, just do the first couple of fills with colored, it will discolor parts of the body that need to be sanded back and will pull some filler out; after a couple of fills switch to clear to avoid the issue.
3.) If you plan on staining, you should stain before filling, as the stain will not get absorbed by areas they have filer applied to them. This can be problematic with mahogany and easier to use clear filler ONLY else you will wind up sand the filler back through the stain in places and get frustrated. If you're planning on spraying your top coats anyway, it's a lot simpler/easier to finish the colored/clear grain filling process and then add color by shooting sanding sealer over the filled grain, leveling to #320/400 and then shooting with a toner of the color of your choice and then applying your gloss top coats.
4.) You can do anything you want on top of water based fillers.

 

[eiopago]

jackthehack:

should i also apply a coat of sealer after i stain, and obviously after the filler and before the clear coat ?
and,
by toner do you mean more stain or a colour that i would have to spray or brush?

sorry if sound a bit redundant, but it`s the first time that i`m going to do a finish on a guitar and i don` t want to ruin this nice wood...