Does tone pot change pickup sound even on full "open"?

[Cederick]

So now I have two guitars both with Dimarzio Super Distortion (even tho one is an old 70s and one is brand new) and the new one sounds better, but also has a tone pot connected.

The other one is just through a volume pot... And the new one sounds way better! The one with only volume sounds a bit clonky in comparison, not at all as full and nice.

Will I get a more similar sound if I add a tone pot??

 

[stratamania]

Yes a normal tone pot even fully open can influence how something sounds.

Of course to really compare with or without you would need to do it in the same guitar to rule out other variables.

 

[Cederick]

Yeah, I could probably just solder a tone pot into the other guitar and see how it sounds, I don't have to drill a hole for the tone pot, I can do that afterwards if it's really necessary

 

[line6man]

It depends on pot value and signal impedance. Often, a difference cannot be heard with a 500k resistance. 250k can definitely be heard, however, with almost any impedance.

 

[Tony Raven]

Yes, it makes a difference, because even "zero ohms" is still running the circuit through the slider. I can hear it, but I'm not so much a tone fanatic that I can't compensate at the amp.

But I've put in a "kill"switch for a guy, just an SPDT toggle that end-runs the Tone pot. He likes it, & also likes he can go from rolled-off treble to wide-open with just one snap.

 

[line6man]

Yes, it makes a difference, because even "zero ohms" is still running the circuit through the slider. I can hear it, but I'm not so much a tone fanatic that I can't compensate at the amp.

But I've put in a "kill"switch for a guy, just an SPDT toggle that end-runs the Tone pot. He likes it, & also likes he can go from rolled-off treble to wide-open with just one snap.

Zero Ohms means that the tone control is at it's most extreme cut. The capacitor is directly parallel to the circuit, at that point. The "bypass" setting, is where the resistance approaches infinity.

 

[stubhead]

YES!
Yes!
yes.... and quite likely, yes.

People who say they "never use the tone control" - well besides having to run over to the amp all the time and/or having to build some sort of EQ'd "presets" into a pedalboard... well if you play a guitar that always has the tone controls on 10, so you build a guitar with no tone control - it can be a really zoinked build. EVERYTHING the signal runs through matters. I don't think caps matter, certainly not as much as some of the more insanely-effusive descriptions found on Moronspeak.com. The caps are like... the plug in a sink, the signal runs to them but not through them. And the differences that people hear are because two different brands of a .022 caliber cap are actually not both perfectly "22s" - call it the size of the plug in the drain.

But all the wiring, the pots, which parts of the circuitry is emboldened* or disconnected by the switching, yup. I goofed over this one a few times before I figured it out. One possible, and certainly elegant, solution is through the use of internal trimpots. They're about the size of a sugar cube, and can only be adjusted with a screwdriver. But if a guitar is just always, always too bright no matter what you do with the existing controls and the amp, a trimpot will cure it. They're really cheap too.

Here they are in the Electrical aisle, not the Guitar Part aisle (maybe why they're cheap? :evil4:

http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_odkw=&_osacat=58164&_trksid=p2045573.m570.l1313.TR0.TRC0.Xtrimpot&_nkw=trimpot&_sacat=58164&_from=R40

I have occasionally seen guitars with little holes in the pickguard so you can stick a little screwdriver in there to change the (stably-mounted) trimpot value. Which seems dim, what you apparently need there is a TONE CONTROL.... :dontknow:


*(do you know how LONG I've been waiting for a good use of that word?) :hello2:

 

[Dan025]

yeah it's pretty clear that it does. how much depends on a lot of things.

 

[stratamania]

Yes, it makes a difference, because even "zero ohms" is still running the circuit through the slider. I can hear it, but I'm not so much a tone fanatic that I can't compensate at the amp.

But I've put in a "kill"switch for a guy, just an SPDT toggle that end-runs the Tone pot. He likes it, & also likes he can go from rolled-off treble to wide-open with just one snap.

That's more of a bypass switch rather than what tends to be called a kill switch. A kill switch stops the signal altogether and often pressed in and out rhythmically for a stuttering type of effect.

With a 4PDT it's possible to take the  signal from a humbucker and bypass all of the circuitry direct to the output jack. That tends to be called a blower switch.

 

[line6man]

With a 4PDT it's possible to take the  signal from a humbucker and bypass all of the circuitry direct to the output jack. That tends to be called a blower switch.

Only two poles are required for that.

 

[Tony Raven]

Zero Ohms means that the tone control is at it's most extreme cut. The capacitor is directly parallel to the circuit, at that point. The "bypass" setting, is where the resistance approaches infinity.

Apologies for being unclear. I've hooked up the ol' meter, & "zero" is often NOT 0 ohms. I want to say "especially on older pots due to buildup of oxides" but I've also noted this on fresh pots. Bad enough that most potentiometers don't run the slider over to a metalized patch -- there's still resistive coating there, even if almost none -- but it's a teensy contact surface in any case & prone to gunking up between blasts of DeoxIT, so inherently not quite zero.

Unt yah, I understand about the "kill switch" terminology but that's what the guy called it & well, ya dance with him what brung ya, eh? :icon_biggrin: In any case, a good sealed switch that bypasses the pot WILL cause a cleaner tone, 100% generally being more han 99.99%.

 

[stratamania]

With a 4PDT it's possible to take the  signal from a humbucker and bypass all of the circuitry direct to the output jack. That tends to be called a blower switch.

Only two poles are required for that.

So how would you avoid bleed with two poles ?

By using 4 poles all bleed can be eliminated and when it's in circuit you can still do series or parallel or coil tap. But I can't see how you would do that with 2 poles only.

 

[stratamania]

Unt yah, I understand about the "kill switch" terminology but that's what the guy called it & well, ya dance with him what brung ya, eh? :icon_biggrin: In any case, a good sealed switch that bypasses the pot WILL cause a cleaner tone, 100% generally being more han 99.99%.

I thought it was probably something like that...

 

[line6man]

With a 4PDT it's possible to take the  signal from a humbucker and bypass all of the circuitry direct to the output jack. That tends to be called a blower switch.

Only two poles are required for that.

So how would you avoid bleed with two poles ?

By using 4 poles all bleed can be eliminated and when it's in circuit you can still do series or parallel or coil tap. But I can't see how you would do that with 2 poles only.

Bleed?

One pole switches the jack, and one pole switches the pickup hot. Normal wiring routes the commons to their usual places, bypass wiring just shunts the commons together.

 

[stratamania]

With a 4PDT it's possible to take the  signal from a humbucker and bypass all of the circuitry direct to the output jack. That tends to be called a blower switch.

Only two poles are required for that.

So how would you avoid bleed with two poles ?

By using 4 poles all bleed can be eliminated and when it's in circuit you can still do series or parallel or coil tap. But I can't see how you would do that with 2 poles only.

Bleed?

One pole switches the jack, and one pole switches the pickup hot. Normal wiring routes the commons to their usual places, bypass wiring just shunts the commons together.

Are we talking about the same thing ? 

A blower switch that bypasses the entire circuit for the bridge humbucker direct to the output jack as if there were no selectors, volumes or tones. It has to bypass all of them or when not bypassed feed the four wires of the humbucker into the selector, volume and tone etc. 

 

[line6man]

With a 4PDT it's possible to take the  signal from a humbucker and bypass all of the circuitry direct to the output jack. That tends to be called a blower switch.

Only two poles are required for that.

So how would you avoid bleed with two poles ?

By using 4 poles all bleed can be eliminated and when it's in circuit you can still do series or parallel or coil tap. But I can't see how you would do that with 2 poles only.

Bleed?

One pole switches the jack, and one pole switches the pickup hot. Normal wiring routes the commons to their usual places, bypass wiring just shunts the commons together.

Are we talking about the same thing ? 

A blower switch that bypasses the entire circuit for the bridge humbucker direct to the output jack as if there were no selectors, volumes or tones. It has to bypass all of them or when not bypassed feed the four wires of the humbucker into the selector, volume and tone etc.

Yes.

There is no need to switch four conductor wiring for this. After the series/parallel switching, or series/single coil switching, or whatever sort of coil configuration switching you have chosen, the humbucker has only one connection in the circuit, and that's its output. (There is a ground, as well, but that is to be hardwired to the instrument's ground.) That output can either be routed to pickup selectors and volume pots and such, or into the pole of the bypass switch that goes to the jack in bypass mode.  Think of it like true-bypass switching on a pedal.

 

[stratamania]

Line6man, I see what you are saying but I am meaning putting the humbucker bypass prior to all selectors and tones etc.

So in bypass you have a series humbucker going direct to the output jack, in non bypass it goes into the circuitry and can then be split, series, parallel or selected.

So in use if you had a neck and middle pickup selected, with the volume and tone rolled back to 7 as an example, if you then hit the blower switch you get the bridge humbucker at full output direct to the output jack. This is what Suhr offer as an option and they use a 4PDT. 

 

[Dan025]

i think what stratmania means is when you pull the "blower" switch, it is series, always. even if you also have a series parallel switch. i understadn the function of it but it's really not that advantageous considering the favorite overdrives out there are variations of the old ts808 and have a low input impedence. i guess if you have a low gain tube amp and want to drive it without pedals and you want some sizzle out of your hot humbucher then sure. but in that case is a parallel setting all that advantageous to your playing? i've done all kinds of weird things to guitars and lately i try to make them easy to use with minimal wiring.

 

[TonyFlyingSquirrel]

But I've put in a "kill"switch for a guy, just an SPDT toggle that end-runs the Tone pot. He likes it, & also likes he can go from rolled-off treble to wide-open with just one snap.

This could pretty interesting in conjunction with a phase switch.  Ie; I just installed a phase switch via a push/pull switch on the tone pot of my Bari-Tele.  With the phase switch engaged knocking both pickups out of phase with each other, and the tone rolled back, it has some very Brian May-ish sounding mid-notched tone, sort of like a wah pedal at half sweep & parked, just without the noise.

Being able to engage that parked tone pot setting could prove useful in some applications.