Definitive answer: why not to glue a bolt on design

[Orpheo]

Allright. I want a clean discussion about glueing a bolt-on design neck to a bolt on design body. warmoth's les pauls, Tele's, their new singlecut designs etc etc all have a lot of wood on the sides (as opposed to a strat), so: why not? there's the wood on the sides and in the back, the neck sits in the pocket nice and tight (often, the fit is so tight the neck and body are attached together and the body won't fall when suspended mid air).

So.. do tell. But I don't need arguments like 'because it's not designed that way'. I want to know WHY it doesn't work from a structural standpoint.

 

[fretless]

A:because you can't easily remove it .

 

[Cagey]

Because like solder joints, the secret to a good glue joint is a good mechanical joint. A bolt-on neck to an open pocket is essentially a lap joint, with no structural support whatsoever. All the stress is put on the glue, which these days is typically stronger than the wood, so the wood will just peel back if there's a torsional or radial load on it. Also, you don't have enough glue surface, which concentrates the stress too much.

You need a mortise and tenon or a dovetail joint so you have the mechanical strength to withstand the stresses involved, enough contact surface to spread the load, then you glue that so it doesn't move.

Lap joint​

Mortise and Tenon​

Dovetail joint​

 

[dudesweet157]

Because if/when you break it, you can no longer replace it easily, and what he said. ^^^ :rock-on:

 

[Jumble Jumble]

Why would you? I want to hear the answer to that first.

 

[Ddbltrbl]

Why would you? I want to hear the answer to that first.

+1 Now, that's the right question!

 

[Orpheo]

why I would isn't the question. I am just interested in why NOT. And Cagey, that is already nullified by my initial statement: some bolt on necks do have a nice, tight fit. sometimes even tighter than many glue-in designs I see with competitors. But that's perhaps because it's a singlecut design. Still...why not? The mechanical connection is tight, I know that Blackmore did it with his strats: what's there to stop us from doing it besides logical reasons like removing a neck and such?

 

[Jumble Jumble]

OK. Well, if you refuse to say why you would want to do this, there are only a few points to address.

1. Why would it be better?

It wouldn't. Glued in necks actually have less sustain (although by an amount undetectable by listeners), are more difficult to maintain etc.

2. Why would it be worse?

See above. You'd just be making the guitar unnecessarily harder to work with and functionally (imperceptibly) worse.

---

So that's it. Yes, if there was a very tight neck pocket with lots of contact all the way around and a decent mechanical joint, you could glue it instead. The thing that's stopping you doing it is the same thing that stops you nickel-plating the inside of your pot casings, or storing your machine heads in a vacuum for 24 hours before you fit them: while there is no reason not to, there is absolutely no point in doing it.

I do like the fact that your last question is "what's to stop us besides logical reasons". What do you want, illogical reasons? Sure, I'll bite. Don't glue in a neck that's designed to be screwed on, because someone is riding a horse in a field outside my window right now.

 

[sixstringsamurai]

Sure, I'll bite. Don't glue in a neck that's designed to be screwed on, because someone is riding a horse in a field outside my window right now.

:toothy12: :toothy12: :toothy12:

 

[Updown]

Don't glue in a neck that's designed to be screwed on, because someone is riding a horse in a field outside my window right now.

That's Not a horse Jumble.

That's a Flying Pig  :icon_biggrin:

Back to the OP Q ...
I wouldn't do it, for the simple fact there isn't very much area to glue using a Warmoth neck and body.
Need more glueing area.

But there is Nothing stopping you from doing it, just ya can't take it off later if needed.
Are you talking about just using glue ?
or
Use both, Glue and the neck screws ?

BTW ... I like being able to swap necks about.  :icon_thumright:

 

[swarfrat]

Aside from the Ritchie Blackmore video recently posted - the only real load the screws take is resisting the torque from the strings pulling above the fingerboard. The heel should be capable of holding the inline tension. That said.. why would you want to interject a layer of dissimilar material between the two.

Dissimilar masses with an intermediate material of differing characteristics is functionally a Tuned Mass Damper or as the article says "also known as a harmonic absorber".

 

[sixstringsamurai]

See the Glued/screwed debate ranks right up there with Capacitor Debate(PIO vs. ....)

Imperceptible differences are just that...

 

[Super Turbo Deluxe Custom]

The biggest complaint of a bolt-on is awkward fret access.  The biggest complaint of a set neck is that the neck is glued on.  If it worked, you could now have the worst of both worlds.

 

[mayfly]

The biggest complaint of a bolt-on is awkward fret access.  The biggest complaint of a set neck is that the neck is glued on.  If it worked, you could now have the worst of both worlds.

My thoughts exactly.  You don't because it's a bad idea 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LBFgSEZI_Ik

 

[Orpheo]

I don't care if it's wrong or right. I don't care if it's supposed or not supposed to be. I don't have the intention to refit a guitar like this. i just want to know WHY people are so opposed to it. Consider a bolt on neck with a very tight joint. What's the structural difference between a bolt on neck with a tight fit (tight = body can be suspended on neck mid air without shifting!) versus a 'regular' glued in neck. if the neck pocket joint fit is tight I think it should work to glue it in. Why not?

 

[Jumble Jumble]

People aren't opposed to it because there's something super-bad about it. They're opposed to it because it has no advantages.

It has a few minor downsides, like the maintainability etc, but nothing that's really gonna kill the guitar. But even you have been unable to provide a reason to do it - an advantage, an upside to weigh out the downside.

So yes, as long s you weren't just making a lap joint (like would be necessary on the Warmoth V2 body) then you'd probably be OK. But I still think it's a stupid question unless there is some sort of good reason to do it. The answer to "why not?" is simply "because it's more effort than screws, for no advantage".

 

[Johnny]

The biggest complaint of a bolt-on is awkward fret access. 

You mean as compared to an LP?  :icon_jokercolor:

I don't know the answer but I would think it would work fine.  If you were actually going to do it, you could add some wooden dowels in place of the screws.  They could be inserted from the front side of the open neck pocket instead of through the back so they wouldn't be visible.

While I personally wouldn't do this, I can appreciate that sometimes you just want to do something because it's what you want to do. 

 

[line6man]

The biggest complaint of a bolt-on is awkward fret access.  The biggest complaint of a set neck is that the neck is glued on.  If it worked, you could now have the worst of both worlds.

Every-so-often you will see a parts Strat on eBay, with the bolt-on neck glued into the neck pocket, with no screws in the factory pre-drilled holes, and you just have you scratch your head and wonder which drug the seller was taking at the time.

It's definitely the worst of both worlds. The neck is permanently stuck in place, and you still have the disadvantages of a bolt-neck.

 

[CrazyGrain]

I don't care if it's wrong or right. I don't care if it's supposed or not supposed to be. I don't have the intention to refit a guitar like this. i just want to know WHY people are so opposed to it. Consider a bolt on neck with a very tight joint. What's the structural difference between a bolt on neck with a tight fit (tight = body can be suspended on neck mid air without shifting!) versus a 'regular' glued in neck. if the neck pocket joint fit is tight I think it should work to glue it in. Why not?

Because the joint isn't designed to be glued. Plain and simple. Look at photos of set neck guitars that haven't been glued up yet and then look at a strat pocket/ neck heel. It's a different kind of joint. Pretty much what Cagey already pointed out above.

 

[Cagey]

I think a lot of people don't consider the whole picture. As I mentioned earlier in the thread, modern adhesives are miraculous things - often much stronger than the materials they're meant to join. As a result, when you look at where joints break it's often not the joint itself. That remains intact. The glue serves as a puller and peels the wood away along the grain lines immediately adjacent to the joint.

Look at epoxy. That is some miraculous stuff. Sticks to anything, cures hard as rock. You could glue Jello shots together with a bit of that. But, I doubt anyone's under the illusion that you couldn't separate those delicious little lovelies with no effort at all and get that hot chick at the next table drunk. Why? Because you don't have to fight the epoxy. You only have to fight the Jello. And as we all know, chicks love to fight in jello.

Same with cyanoacrylate (super glue). Glue your fingers together in less time than it takes to say "dammit!". But, it's not a good joint. Your skin will rip easily (albeit painfully), leaving the glue joint intact.

So, it's not a matter of whether or not you can glue something together. It's a matter of whether it makes practical sense. In the case of guitar necks, it makes little or no sense unless you have a good mechanical joint to start with. Otherwise, it's doomed to failure. You don't need a strong glue, you need a strong joint. That leaves out lap-jointed bolt-on necks.