Conversion neck question

[djmarcelca]

I've been reading article after article and cannot find the information;

What make the Conversion neck, a Conversion neck?

From images I've seen, the neck heel is the same as a regular neck heel.
It's not slightly elongated to allow for intonation, Or is it?

Basically what is the difference between a Warmoth conversion neck VS another manufacturers 24.75 bolt on neck?

I've almost concluded it's not much (workmanship excepted)

Anyone know better?

 

[alterbridgefan]

Warmoth makes necks for fender style guitars, so this is if you want a short scale tele, per say. So, yes, same thing.

 

[AutoBat]

It's converting a 25.5 scale length to 24.75.  If you just move the neck in the 0.75 inches without compensating for the fret positions then nothing will be in tune.  A conversion neck adjusts the fret positions so that all the notes will sound correct.
If you just put a 24.75 bolt on neck that isn't compensated it simply will not work.  Sure you might be able to tune & play open notes, but any fretted note will sound terrible.

I'm not sure if any of that came out making sense.
Here's from the horses mouth:
http://www.warmoth.com/Guitar/Necks/ConversionNecks.aspx

 

[swarfrat]

What makes a conversion neck is the fact that 1) the neck pocket is compatible with the fender neck pocket, and 2) the bridge to pocket distance is the same as for the fender spec necs.

the 28.625 baritone necks are a great example because frets 2 - 24 happen to be exactly the same as frets 0 - 22 on a 25.5 scale fender neck. it just adds an extra 2 frets BEHIND the nut. 

the 24" scale necks and 7/8 necks have a different bridge to pocket length than the 25.5 and conversions, thiough they are compatible with each other.

Its the compatibility of the bridge location to the neck that makes it a conversion neck

 

[drewfx]

I find it easier to visualize that [EDIT: for a 24.75" conversion neck,] you are essentially removing extra space at the bottom of the fretboard (or frets), so that the rest of the frets are closer to the bridge. When using a "real" (non-conversion) neck [EDIT: I'm talking about a 24.75" neck on a guitar made for 24.75" necks], the bridge is located closer to the neck pocket.

And a conversion baritone neck adds "extra" frets to move the other frets further from the bridge.

 

[swarfrat]

Found it - Warmoth should draw up a slicker version of this for the website.

 

[NQbass7]

Found it - Warmoth should draw up a slicker version of this for the website.

Just for clarity in this picture: the little box is the neck pocket, the vertical line on the left is the bridge position, and the end of each line on the right is the nut. So the first three are one body type with a certain length from bridge to neck pocket, and the last two are a different body type with a shorter length from bridge to neck pocket.

 

[djmarcelca]

So the essential difference - if I'm understanding correctly,
The neck heel is elongated by about 1/2" to compensate for the over-all shorter neck
this allows the relative 12th fret position to remain the same for intonation purposes.
Correct or crazy?  :icon_scratch:

 

[swarfrat]

Edit - because I realized I spazzed out and was explaining the incompatible necks instead of conversion necks. More Nyquil please.

 

[Ace Flibble]

Don't think of it as the neck heel moving or being modified, because the heels are exactly the same as 25.5" scale necks so they can mount on regular Fender 25.5" scale bodies. It's more like the fretboard is the bit which moves.

I think Musikraft and USACG each do it in a slightly different way, I know my Musikraft 24.75" conversion neck's heel is a slightly different shape/taper into the rest of the neck than on my Warmoth 24.75" conversion necks, and USACG do a 25" conversion scale neck which they charge an extra fee for, I believe because that's another very slgihtly different method again.

 

[NQbass7]

So the essential difference - if I'm understanding correctly,
The neck heel is elongated by about 1/2" to compensate for the over-all shorter neck
this allows the relative 12th fret position to remain the same for intonation purposes.
Correct or crazy?  :icon_scratch:

The essential difference is that the nut, 12th fret, and all of the other frets as well are placed a shorter distance from the heel such a way that, when placed on a standard Fender-spec'ed body, the distance from nut to bridge is 24.75 instead of 25.5, and all of the frets will intonate properly. That means the neck is slightly shorter, the frets are slightly closer together, the 12th fret is slightly closer to the heel of the neck (so it will be only 12.375" from the bridge instead of 12.75 when mounted on an identical body), etc.

 

[djmarcelca]

OK, I'm beginning to see the light - I think. ???

After looking and reading more stuff here and online, I'm still not sure what the difference between a Warmoth Conversion neck is compared to another generic 24.75 scale bolt on neck.

If it's simply the fact the heel is routed and shaped to fit a Fender neck pocket vs an Ibanez or Epiphone neck pocket.  :icon_scratch:

That's the main information I'm looking for.

Because the fret spacing for 24.75 & 25.5 scales are pretty much set in stone.
Made me wonder what was so special about the construction of the neck.
I'm taking away from this conversation:
Nothing special other than neck heel shape is compatible with Fender bodies.

 

[Cagey]

Nothing special other than neck heel shape is compatible with Fender bodies.

No, NQbass7 has it right. The fret spacing is not the same between a 24.75" and 25.5" neck, nor is it the same between a standard 24.75" neck (such as Gibson makes) and a 24.75" conversion neck (such as Warmoth makes). Warmoth calculated where the frets had to be if you put a 24.75" scale neck on a 25.5" body, and cuts them there. That "converts" the guitar to a 24.75" scale, even though the bridge placement on a 25.5" body didn't move.

They do have the same headstocks and heels, but the overall length and fret spacing are different.

Incidentally, since the body doesn't change (neck pocket and bridge remain in place), it's not critical that it be a Warmoth body. You could put one of their conversion necks on a Fender (or other clone) body and it would become a 24.75" scale guitar.

Also, while we're talking about it, you can go in the other direction as well. That is, put together a Les Paul or SG with a 25.5" scale (although in those cases, you would have to use a Warmoth body). Could solve some problems for those who are married to a particular scale length.

 

[Super Turbo Deluxe Custom]

Exactly.  Leave the body out of it.  It's a conversion NECK. 

 

[NQbass7]

The fret spacing is not the same ... between a standard 24.75" neck (such as Gibson makes) and a 24.75" conversion neck (such as Warmoth makes).

If I'm not mistaken (and it's certainly possible I am, I'm shooting from the hip on this one), the fret spacing from the nut would be identical between a standard Gibson (24.75") neck and a Warmoth 24.75" conversion neck. That is, if you put a Gibson neck and a Warmoth conversion neck next to each other and lined up the nuts next to each other, all the frets would be next to each other as well (which is not true if you lined up a 25.5" Warmoth neck next to a 24.75" Warmoth neck). However, the end of the neck might not be in the same place.

In other words, for any particular scale length, the frets should always be the exact same spacing - it's scale length that determines where the frets need to be in relation to the nut.

 

[Cagey]

If I'm not mistaken (and it's certainly possible I am, I'm shooting from the hip on this one), the fret spacing from the nut would be identical between a standard Gibson (24.75") neck and a Warmoth 24.75" conversion neck. That is, if you put a Gibson neck and a Warmoth conversion neck next to each other and lined up the nuts next to each other, all the frets would be next to each other as well (which is not true if you lined up a 25.5" Warmoth neck next to a 24.75" Warmoth neck). However, the end of the neck might not be in the same place.

In other words, for any particular scale length, the frets should always be the exact same spacing - it's scale length that determines where the frets need to be in relation to the nut.

What you say makes sense. For any given scale, the halfway point is at the 12th fret. But I just happen to have a Gibson here and a loose conversion neck. The difference isn't huge, but it's there... about 1/4" or so overall from the front of the nut to the end of the 22nd fret, just going by eye.

So, I held them next to each other, and you can see the frets gradually stretching farther on the conversion neck...

At the nut...

At the 12th fret...

At the 22nd fret​

So... wtf? I didn't move the neck for any of those shots - I lined up the fretboards at the nut, and took all three shots.

 

[NQbass7]

Well I'll be damned. How does that work? If they're both 24.75" necks, then the 12th fret should be exactly 12.375" from the nut, right?

 

[Cagey]

Yeah, I'm pretty sure that's etched in stone. So, I'm guessing there's something else going on. Unfortunately, I don't have an accurate measuring stick that long.

 

[Jumble Jumble]

Yeah, obviously the scale length is the length of the string, and the 12th fret has to be halfway along the string.

The way I look at it is, a neck has an inherent scale length set in stone, and a body doesn't. Bear with me on this.

There is NO WAY you can make a neck that has a 25.5" scale length work as part of a guitar with a 24.75" scale. Because the frets will be in the wrong place.

However, with a body, you can do anything you want. All that matters is the bridge to nut distance and that the 12th fret comes half way along that distance. So by choosing your neck, you can do a 24.75", a 25.5" or a 28" (or any other length) on that same body. Not possible with a neck.

Saying a body has a 25.5" scale length isn't really true. What it actually has is a neck heel to bridge distance that suits the almost-universally agreed standard on where you put the heel on a 25.5" neck. A conversion neck is really just a neck with a 24.75" scale, but that conforms to the normal Fender dimensions.

There is no magically "correct" place to put the heel on a 25.5" neck. There's just a "traditional" one. If the Fender standard were "correct", it would mean other places were "incorrect", and that would mean a conversion neck wouldn't be possible.

I think Warmoth saying their bodies have a "scale length of 25.5" is a bit misleading really. What it actually means is that the body has a "Fender standard" heel to bridge distance.

 

[swarfrat]

http://www.stewmac.com/freeinfo/Fretting/a-scalelength.html
Gibson
The Gibson 24-3/4" scale is also very common, but it is also the most confusing of all scale lengths—this is because it rarely ever measures out to be 24-3/4 inches! This scale has gradually changed over the past fifty or so years due to changes in production equipment.

It won't change the lineup of the frets, but intonation adjustments are actually changing the scale length a tiny bit to compensate for things like string inharmonicity (bridge compensation) and pitch change due to tension required to fret the string (nut compensation)