Coil split that also activates a different cap

[rauchman]

Greetings,

Is there way to wire up....

Using a push pull, when selecting a coil split, is there a way to also activate a different tone cap?

I'm finding I like .47's for humbuckers and .22's for when the coils are split.  I'd like to have the .22's used when pulling up on the push pull for the coil split.  Any way to do this?

Thanks!

 

[mayfly]

I can see doing that, but your coil-split switch would have to have another pole just for switching the cap.  You might have to be inventive in mounting the caps as well.

Can you let me know what switch you were going to use for your coil split?  Then I can suggest something.

 

[rauchman]

I can see doing that, but your coil-split switch would have to have another pole just for switching the cap.  You might have to be inventive in mounting the caps as well.

Can you let me know what switch you were going to use for your coil split?  Then I can suggest something.

Thanks....using the following setup

Standard Tele type 3 way lever
4 pots - Bridge vol, bridge tone, neck push/pull vol (splits both HB's at once) and neck tone

 

[mayfly]

ok - How are you doing the coil-tap?  Are you grounding the middle lead of each pickup with the switch? Also, is it a DPDT switch on that pot?  It seems would need to find a pot with a 3PDT push-pull switch to replace the DPDT one that you currently have on your neck volume.  Unfortunately I don't know of any pots with 3PDT switches.

 

[DuckBaloo]

You want one DPDT switch to split two separate pickups and switch the cap value on two unique tone controls? That's a tall order.

You might be able to compromise by using .022mfd caps in the stock circuit, and having two additional .022mfd caps to ground in the split switch, this would give you .044mfd combined capcitance, but your tone control would be less effective.

Otherwise, split the difference and use .033mfd caps. Personally, I like smaller caps on single coils, it retains more mid range when rolled back.

 

[Logrinn]

With a Fender S-1 pot/switch you should be able to do it since it’s a 4pole switch

 

[rauchman]

ok - How are you doing the coil-tap?  Are you grounding the middle lead of each pickup with the switch? Also, is it a DPDT switch on that pot?  It seems would need to find a pot with a 3PDT push-pull switch to replace the DPDT one that you currently have on your neck volume.  Unfortunately I don't know of any pots with 3PDT switches.

Yup, a DPDT switch for the neck vol.  Yes, grounding the middle neck (well, using a resistor of 6.8k in the ground)

 

[rauchman]

You want one DPDT switch to split two separate pickups and switch the cap value on two unique tone controls? That's a tall order.

You might be able to compromise by using .022mfd caps in the stock circuit, and having two additional .022mfd caps to ground in the split switch, this would give you .044mfd combined capcitance, but your tone control would be less effective.

Otherwise, split the difference and use .033mfd caps. Personally, I like smaller caps on single coils, it retains more mid range when rolled back.

Ironic you mention this.  Went with .033 caps on this build thinking it would be a good compromise.  The last build used .047 caps for the tone knob, and a push pull which when pulled, used a .022 cap.  For the Humbucker, I like the .047 better and the .022 for the SC.  The .033 (at least with this guitar using Suhr Aldrich pups) sounds.....like a compromise.

 

[rauchman]

With a Fender S-1 pot/switch you should be able to do it since it’s a 4pole switch

Very interesting, thank you.  Will have to investigate this.

 

[mayfly]

With a Fender S-1 pot/switch you should be able to do it since it’s a 4pole switch

Very interesting, thank you.  Will have to investigate this.

Yep I think that's what you're going to need.

 

[rauchman]

With a Fender S-1 pot/switch you should be able to do it since it’s a 4pole switch

Very interesting, thank you.  Will have to investigate this.

Yep I think that's what you're going to need.

Could I be so bold as to ask for a wiring diagram?  I've been looking at wiring diagrams for the switch and don't quite follow it.

Some other questions in thinking of just using a DPDT....

If lining up multiple capacitors in a single stream, are they additive?  If I take 2 separate .022 caps, and with the push pull have one go to ground in the down (Humbucker) position, while the other is on the tone cap in the conventional way.  Would that put two .022 caps in line together in the push pull down position, and would their value then be .044?  Then when the push pull is pulled up, the one would be cut off per se, with only the .022 on the tone pot working.  Would that work?

 

[mayfly]

If lining up multiple capacitors in a single stream, are they additive?  If I take 2 separate .022 caps, and with the push pull have one go to ground in the down (Humbucker) position, while the other is on the tone cap in the conventional way.  Would that put two .022 caps in line together in the push pull down position, and would their value then be .044?  Then when the push pull is pulled up, the one would be cut off per se, with only the .022 on the tone pot working.  Would that work?

I think what you are describing is that with the switch down, the two caps would be in parallel.  If this is the case, then yes the value of the overall capacitance is equal to the sum of the values of the individual caps.  That is they add.  Yes this is the reverse of how it works with resistors.

Think of each cap as two plates, with the capacitance increasing when the plates get larger.  With two caps in parallel, then the two areas add together creating an overall capacitance equal to the sum of the two areas, or capacitance values.  When you put two caps in series, the overall capacitance decreases as follows:

1/overall capacitance = 1/Cap1Value + 1/Cap2value

 

[stratamania]

This will not show you the wiring you need but it will explain how a 4PDT switch works and what poles are active in each position of an S1 switch.

https://stratamania.wordpress.com/2014/12/03/4pdt-blower-switch-for-guitar/

Here is how I can see to do it with a single S1 switch...

1.
2. Bridge Red & White
3. To ground

4. .47 cap to middle lug of bridge tone pot
5. to bridge tone pot ground
6. .22 cap to middle lug of bridge tone pot

7.
8. Neck Red & White
9. To ground

10. .47 cap to middle lug of neck tone pot
11. to neck tone pot ground
12. .22 cap to middle lug of neck tone pot

Note: for the caps both of them are soldered to the respective middle lug of its tone pot and the other end of the cap to the S1 switch position shown. The S1 switch has a connection to the back of each tone pot from terminals 5 and 11 for each respective connection. Dependent on which position of the switch you are in only one cap completes its circuit to ground.

Of course if you used two S1 switches one for each pickup the splits can work independently and the cap selection could be done a little more elegantly.

Here as an example is how you could do this with an S1 switch dedicated to the bridge tone. (A separate S1 for neck tone - would be wired in a similar manner)

Note: Each end of each cap is soldered to the respective positions of the S1 switch described e.g. the .47  is between terminals 4 and 7.

1.
2. Bridge Red & White
3. To ground

4. .47 cap to terminal 7
5. to bridge tone pot ground
6. .22 cap to terminal 9

7. .47 cap to terminal 4
8.  to middle lug of bridge tone pot
9. .22 cap to terminal 6

10.
11.
12.

 

[rauchman]

If lining up multiple capacitors in a single stream, are they additive?  If I take 2 separate .022 caps, and with the push pull have one go to ground in the down (Humbucker) position, while the other is on the tone cap in the conventional way.  Would that put two .022 caps in line together in the push pull down position, and would their value then be .044?  Then when the push pull is pulled up, the one would be cut off per se, with only the .022 on the tone pot working.  Would that work?

I think what you are describing is that with the switch down, the two caps would be in parallel.  If this is the case, then yes the value of the overall capacitance is equal to the sum of the values of the individual caps.  That is they add.  Yes this is the reverse of how it works with resistors.

Think of each cap as two plates, with the capacitance increasing when the plates get larger.  With two caps in parallel, then the two areas add together creating an overall capacitance equal to the sum of the two areas, or capacitance values.  When you put two caps in series, the overall capacitance decreases as follows:

1/overall capacitance = 1/Cap1Value + 1/Cap2value

Excellent.....thank you.  So, this could work then?

 

[rauchman]

This will not show you the wiring you need but it will explain how a 4PDT switch works and what poles are active in each position of an S1 switch.

https://stratamania.wordpress.com/2014/12/03/4pdt-blower-switch-for-guitar/

Here is how I can see to do it with a single S1 switch...

1.
2. Bridge Red & White
3. To ground

4. .47 cap to middle lug of bridge tone pot
5. to bridge tone pot ground
6. .22 cap to middle lug of bridge tone pot

7.
8. Neck Red & White
9. To ground

10. .47 cap to middle lug of neck tone pot
11. to neck tone pot ground
12. .22 cap to middle lug of neck tone pot

Note: for the caps both of them are soldered to the respective middle lug of its tone pot and the other end of the cap to the S1 switch position shown. The S1 switch has a connection to the back of each tone pot from terminals 5 and 11 for each respective connection. Dependent on which position of the switch you are in only one cap completes its circuit to ground.

Of course if you used two S1 switches one for each pickup the splits can work independently and the cap selection could be done a little more elegantly.

Here as an example is how you could do this with an S1 switch dedicated to the bridge tone. (A separate S1 for neck tone - would be wired in a similar manner)

Note: Each end of each cap is soldered to the respective positions of the S1 switch described e.g. the .47  is between terminals 4 and 7.

1.
2. Bridge Red & White
3. To ground

4. .47 cap to terminal 7
5. to bridge tone pot ground
6. .22 cap to terminal 9

7. .47 cap to terminal 4
8.  to middle lug of bridge tone pot
9. .22 cap to terminal 6

10.
11.
12.

Fantastic....thank you!

 

[stratamania]

This will not show you the wiring you need but it will explain how a 4PDT switch works and what poles are active in each position of an S1 switch.

https://stratamania.wordpress.com/2014/12/03/4pdt-blower-switch-for-guitar/

Here is how I can see to do it with a single S1 switch...

1.
2. Bridge Red & White
3. To ground

4. .47 cap to middle lug of bridge tone pot
5. to bridge tone pot ground
6. .22 cap to middle lug of bridge tone pot

7.
8. Neck Red & White
9. To ground

10. .47 cap to middle lug of neck tone pot
11. to neck tone pot ground
12. .22 cap to middle lug of neck tone pot

Note: for the caps both of them are soldered to the respective middle lug of its tone pot and the other end of the cap to the S1 switch position shown. The S1 switch has a connection to the back of each tone pot from terminals 5 and 11 for each respective connection. Dependent on which position of the switch you are in only one cap completes its circuit to ground.

Of course if you used two S1 switches one for each pickup the splits can work independently and the cap selection could be done a little more elegantly.

Here as an example is how you could do this with an S1 switch dedicated to the bridge tone. (A separate S1 for neck tone - would be wired in a similar manner)

Note: Each end of each cap is soldered to the respective positions of the S1 switch described e.g. the .47  is between terminals 4 and 7.

1.
2. Bridge Red & White
3. To ground

4. .47 cap to terminal 7
5. to bridge tone pot ground
6. .22 cap to terminal 9

7. .47 cap to terminal 4
8.  to middle lug of bridge tone pot
9. .22 cap to terminal 6

10.
11.
12.

Fantastic....thank you!

Sure.

 

[Rick]

I can see splitting something like a seymour duncan everything set, put it into a strat, or even doing this on a dual hum situation.  Very interesting if it can be done.