Chambered Jazzmaster with F Holes?

[JackOfBlades]

Hey guys, nice to meet you all! This is my first time here and first time trying to make a build, so I'll cut to the chase and tell you my story:

I've been dreaming of a semi-hollow Jazzmaster for a while now but I didn't pursue one because the ones I've seen making guitars similar to that concept are boutique guitar companies like BilT, Kauer or the like. Their work is amazing, but it's waaaay to expensive for me atm. So, lurking on internet, I found on eBay someone selling a true semihollow body blank! I was inmediately hyped. Right after that, I saw the neck pocket had a logo and after an hour of trying to decipher the blurry picture, I found the manufacturer and e-mailed him. We exchanged several e-mails and a PayPal invoice, -while yes, I didn't had the forevision of encapsulating all of my questions on one or two e-mails, but treated the exchange like a regular conversation- the manufacturer canceled the invoice the next day, and said he didn't had any time for beginners like me and that I should try with Warmoth. I even e-mailed him again, trying to making him reconsidered his decision, but to no avail.

I was super sad to see the opportunity to build the guitar of my dreams vanish just like that, because at the time, I didn't know Warmoth made chambered Jazzmaster bodies with F hole options. Back again to the internet I go and I stumbled to a picture of a Warmoth Jazzmaster body with an F hole! There is hope once more!  :hello2:

Fast forward to yesterday, I called the guys at Warmoth and decided to lay down my questions in a more orderly fashion regarding chambered bodies, f holes and semi hollow sounds. Basically they said that, in the case of the Jazzmaster and many other chambered bodies with this specific option, the F hole doesn't affect the tone as much as it would if it had a completely hollow chamber, being a little more aesthetic than functional to the tone of the instrument. So, I'd like to inquiry your experience on this matter:

[list type=decimal]
[*]Do you agree with Warmoth? Has any of you purchased a chambered body (be it a Jazzmaster or any other model) with the F hole option, do you feel it makes a different on your tone?

[/list]

Thank you so much for your time and your answers beforehand!

 

[Logrinn]

Hello, and welcome to the forum.
I believe some members here can chime in and give you an answer to that. Perhaps BigSteve has something to say about it. He's done one or two Jazzmaster's I believe. Chambered, but I'm not sure he's got one with f-holes.
I personally haven't bought or tried one of Warmoth's Jazzmasters, but I did get a 7/8 Tele body that was chambered. It doesn't have have any f-holes though. The chambering makes a difference in the weight and the acoustic sound, but I don't find it making much (if any) difference in the sound once it's going through an amp.
Of course, that has also got to do with what kind of sound you dial in from you amp and also what kind of pickups you use. In my case I can't hear any difference between that guitar and my non-chambered 7/8 Strat that I can attribute to the chambering. I believe in my case the difference is coming from the different pickups used in these two guitars.

Whatever you find and decide upon I think you'll love a chambered Jazzmaster body done by Warmoth. The quality is super high, you'll get the guitar of your dreams and people here are super helpful. If you have any questions, just post them and they'll give you an answer.

 

[Fat Pete]

I have 2 guitars with Warmoth chambered (Tele) bodies, both swamp ash with swamp ash tops (both have maple necks too, how boring am I?) One has an f-hole, the other doesn't. They sound very different, but there is a chance that could be down to the completely different hardware and electrical components.

Plenty of people will cheerfully state opinion as fact, so I'll clearly state that this is just my opinion:

If chambering as done by Warmoth has an effect on tone the way an instrument sounds, it's just because of the reduction in mass. The chambers are too small to be acoustically effective; the air inside them will just move with the surrounding wood as part of a closed system. Below the external f-hole is just a slightly larger f-hole and so is really just part of the shape of the 'outside' of the body.

(This bit is paraphrasing somebody else's opinion.) To get a thinline-type effect where there is enough movement in the body structure to substantially affect the way the strings vibrate - and so the 'tone', you need both a large chamber and the f-hole.

So, the question back to the OP is, why do you want a semi-hollow JM?

If it's because you think an f-hole looks very custom and cool on one (and you'd be right to think that), then go for Warmoth; put together carefully with sympathetically chosen parts you can end up with a really high-end instrument for a really reasonable price. The result will be in the range of what you'd expect from a solid body electric guitar.

If you want a real semi-hollow, either stick with Warmoth - Tele Thinline or maybe one of the hollow carved top models, but not a Jazzmaster - or go elsewhere (and come back to W for the neck).

All that's got to be worth what you paid for it.

 

[Cagey]

In short, chambering (or even hollowing out a solid body) is a weight-reduction move, and F-holes are for aesthetics.

Electric guitar bodies have too much mass for them to contribute much, if anything, to the guitar's overall character in any meaningful way. They just can't/don't vibrate sympathetically with the strings to any great degree. At most, they will help some bridge designs to absorb some frequencies, but that's not the same kind of organic effect a resonating wooden chamber like an acoustic guitar body will have. Of course, you can force the issue by amplifying the sound of the guitar many times over and putting the guitar in the sound wave's path (get in front of a Marshall stack turned up to 11, for instance), generating a feedback loop, but otherwise, no.

Electric guitars produce their sound by indirectly sensing the movement of the strings as they vibrate within a magnetic field.  Those sensors (pickups) don't "hear" the body at all. In fact, even the Marshall stack on 11 trick won't work if there are no strings on the guitar.

Of course, anyone with even a marginally functional sense of hearing immediately will immediately point out that all guitars sound different from each other, even those of the same model with the same woods, pickups, strings, etc., so WTF, Kevin? It's gotta be more than just sensing some shivering strings. That's true enough, but where the differences come from vary in influence, and are all subtractive. It's mostly in the pickups, followed by the neck and bridge, followed by a dozen minor things including the body, all of which will lower the amplitude of different frequencies by different amounts, culminating in a final character you'll recognize as that guitar's "tone".

You can do a similar thing with a multi-band parametric equalizer, sometimes referred to as a "notch" filter. Such a control allows you to set a particular frequency band's width, center point, and amount of boost/cut.  That's what most acoustic modeling pedals and amp modelers are doing. How many bands of control you have dictates how accurately you can "model" something. But, I digress.

If you wanna hear more of what the body is doing, you could install piezo pickups and mix those in with the magnetics, but really, you're probably better off going in the opposite direction. Start with a mechanically sensed acoustic guitar and add a magnetic pickup to it. Or, save your pennies and get two (or more) guitars  :laughing7:

All that said, I have a Jazzmaster here that can sound like a piano, a B3 organ, a very hot rock guitar, a banjo, a surf guitar, a set of Neil Piert's drums, a nice acoustic guitar, a P-bass, a Ricky, a Tele - the list is loong. But, I have magnetic pickups, piezo pickups, and MIDI converter on it, and I feed several specialized computers with it before it ever gets to an amp driving any kind of speakers. Someday, I'm gonna learn how to play guitar, then watch out!  :laughing7:

 

[BigSteve22]

Hi Jack, and welcome.

Let me start by saying that I absolutely love my Warmoth Jazzmaster. It's chambered, but no f-hole. (At one time I had considered an f-hole, but just decided against it, no reason other than esthetics.) I suppose the chambering may make some difference acoustically, but as I have no real basis for comparison, that's purely suppositional on my part. What the chambering will do, as Fat Pete  pointed out, is reduce the weight of the body. In a JM this can be of particular importance, because they tend to be HEAVY! The 25% decrease in weight really helps.

Much more important to the way your JM will sound, is your choice of pickups and wiring scheme. I used SD P-Rails and wired them to allow me a choice of P-90, Parallel HB, Series HB, or Rail modes. The choice of modes, via a rotary switch, makes a huge difference in tone. Pickup choice, coupled with the amp you choose, is what will determine the way your JM sounds.

Bottom line: Choose the esthetics you want, and the electronics you need. Couple that with a good bridge, properly cut nut, a neck that matches your playing style and preference, and a good set up, and you'll end up with an instrument you'll love.

:icon_thumright:

(P.S.: While I was typing, Cagey posted some great points above!)

 

[TBurst Std]

Well first I think it is good to understand difference between chambered, semi-hollow and hollow bodies.

As a rule of thumb:

Chambered - the back and sides of the guitar are from a block of wood that is routed out (degrees can vary) with another top of wood as the top.

Hollow - the sides are a piece(s) of wood with separate back and sides

Semi hollow - normally same as hollow with another piece of wood inside as a center section.

Having played all of those styles, and owning a number of them, electrically I will say;

There can be a feel difference in the vibration of the guitar.  This tends to deal with how the bridge is affixed to the guitar, and what bracing there may be. Looking at the Kaure and the bridge, I believe that F hole has little if any impact on tone.

What I am trying to describe is the difference between say a Tom bridge anchored into the center block of a SA (think ES335) vs a floating bridge TOM sitting on the top over a center block (think center block Falcon) vs a Tom bridge anchored into only a thin top (think ES330 or Casio) vs a floating bridge Tom sitting on the top, which may or not be supported (think trestle vs non trestle vs pillar Falcons).

At louder volumes, the possibility of feedback does have some impact on the vibration of the string. A f hole may have an impact on this.

 

[TBurst Std]

If you look at my sig, you will see 3 semi hollows.  All 3 use a Tom bridge. One mounted into the center block with a trem TP. One mounted into the center block with a block TP. The last is floating over the center block with a trem TP.

The 2nd one sounds just like a solid body. The 1st pretty much is the same but could be suspect to potential feedback at high dbs versus a solid body.  The last one is the most different. I do believe that is because the bridge is actually only resting on the top, not affixed.  All have f holes

 

[Hendrix]

I only have chambered body VS solid on the same wood of ash and alder, it has differences, but not very much, I don't know how to describe it, may be said that a bit like put 09 string ( chambered ) vs 10  string ( solid) on the same guitar. can't say which one it better than other, just a bit differences in taste.

and I believe there are fewer differences on the Mahogany body for chambered or not, don't have the comparison as all the Mahogany body I buy from Warmoth is chambered or hollow.

the only reason I buy a  solid body from Warmoth is 1: Like the top or another thing about a show case body, or 2:  I want a traditional sound of Stratocaster and I believe Extra Light wood sound better, that way they have listed out Extra Light Ash & alder.

my experience on building more than 10 Warmoth, is that the combination of different neck wood with body wood got much more effect on tone than chambered or not. better pay more attention to that rather than chambered or not.

some video on tone wood

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yto9DotkrZU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0cbKCA9M8cs

 

[DustyCat]

There can be a feel difference in the vibration of the guitar.  This tends to deal with how the bridge is affixed to the guitar, and what bracing there may be. Looking at the Kaure and the bridge, I believe that F hole has little if any impact on tone.

Recent build from scratch. Everything just soooooo nice!  :turtle: Make me feel like Michaelangelo or DaVinci behind the keyboard.  :cool01: Super ingredients! :yourock:

Anyways, I just ordered a 2-Tek bridge. Haven't installed it yet since these ingredients are too nice to risk botching with my own hands. I'm more of a player than a builder...but maybe someday.

Have you guys seen this thing? 2-TEK bridge? I gets installed and screwed in from the BACK of the body.  :headbang1:

Holy mysherony, now it all makes sense. Each string saddle is separated, and hangs, or rather stands independently from each other, thus isolating sympathetic resonance (is that the right term?).

And with the bridge making solid contact to the rear of the body, omg I can't wait...  :headbanging:

 

[DustyCat]

Or, save your pennies and get two (or more) guitars  :laughing7:

All that said, I have a Jazzmaster here that can sound like a piano, a B3 organ, a very hot rock guitar, a banjo, a surf guitar, a set of Neil Piert's drums, a nice acoustic guitar, a P-bass, a Ricky, a Tele - the list is loong. But, I have magnetic pickups, piezo pickups, and MIDI converter on it, and I feed several specialized computers with it before it ever gets to an amp driving any kind of speakers. Someday, I'm gonna learn how to play guitar, then watch out!  :laughing7:

I usually practice my guitar with it unplugged. I sometimes have to remind myself to actually go through the motions of turning knobs and flipping toggle switches to get those habits into my consciousness. There's a lot to work with with just the volume and tone, and if you have a Swiss army knife, you can keep things moving, and interesting with your wide palette of sounds, if you just take the time every few minutes to remind yourself "Okay, this is where I'm gonna change pickups, or adjust the volume/tone controls to allow for the vocals to be heard..." even with the instrument not plugged in.

It's been an "Everything on 10 all the time" extravaganza before. But it can be so much more deadly when you are sculpting, instead. I tell you to remind myself to stay conscience and "sculpt," not just leave the faucet running  :icon_jokercolor:  :doh:

 

[musicispeace]

Pickups, how you play, and your amp will be the biggest components of what you hear. Go for the aesthetic that pleases you most. I have one chambered Warmoth (no f hole though) and otherwise solid bodies. I used to own an Ibanez 335 copy years ago. More similarities than differences as far as the guitars go since I have a similar style and output of pickups in all of them. Welcome to partscasters and the forum.

 

[wildbill]

In short, chambering (or even hollowing out a solid body) is a weight-reduction move, and F-holes are for aesthetics.

Electric guitar bodies have too much mass for them to contribute much, if anything, to the guitar's overall character in any meaningful way. They just can't/don't vibrate sympathetically with the strings to any great degree. At most, they will help some bridge designs to absorb some frequencies, but that's not the same kind of organic effect a resonating wooden chamber like an acoustic guitar body will have. Of course, you can force the issue by amplifying the sound of the guitar many times over and putting the guitar in the sound wave's path (get in front of a Marshall stack turned up to 11, for instance), generating a feedback loop, but otherwise, no.

Electric guitars produce their sound by indirectly sensing the movement of the strings as they vibrate within a magnetic field.  Those sensors (pickups) don't "hear" the body at all. In fact, even the Marshall stack on 11 trick won't work if there are no strings on the guitar.

Of course, anyone with even a marginally functional sense of hearing immediately will immediately point out that all guitars sound different from each other, even those of the same model with the same woods, pickups, strings, etc., so WTF, Kevin? It's gotta be more than just sensing some shivering strings. That's true enough, but where the differences come from vary in influence, and are all subtractive. It's mostly in the pickups, followed by the neck and bridge, followed by a dozen minor things including the body, all of which will lower the amplitude of different frequencies by different amounts, culminating in a final character you'll recognize as that guitar's "tone".

You can do a similar thing with a multi-band parametric equalizer, sometimes referred to as a "notch" filter. Such a control allows you to set a particular frequency band's width, center point, and amount of boost/cut.  That's what most acoustic modeling pedals and amp modelers are doing. How many bands of control you have dictates how accurately you can "model" something. But, I digress.

If you wanna hear more of what the body is doing, you could install piezo pickups and mix those in with the magnetics, but really, you're probably better off going in the opposite direction. Start with a mechanically sensed acoustic guitar and add a magnetic pickup to it. Or, save your pennies and get two (or more) guitars  :laughing7:

All that said, I have a Jazzmaster here that can sound like a piano, a B3 organ, a very hot rock guitar, a banjo, a surf guitar, a set of Neil Piert's drums, a nice acoustic guitar, a P-bass, a Ricky, a Tele - the list is loong. But, I have magnetic pickups, piezo pickups, and MIDI converter on it, and I feed several specialized computers with it before it ever gets to an amp driving any kind of speakers. Someday, I'm gonna learn how to play guitar, then watch out!  :laughing7:

So Cagey,  I have been searching old posts and reading in regard to your Jazzmaster build with the ghost saddles. Have you now installed the MIDI board and output (maybe a different JM) ?  My next project is gelling in my brain and it tastes like a HH hardtail JM with piezo saddles.  Aside from the numerous options with the MIDI connections, would you recommend it as enhancing the acoustic sound or does the ghost system sound believable just straight out to an amp? Helix, in my case.

 

[Cagey]

The ghost system installed on the Jazzmaster is pretty disappointing when run straight out to an amp. In fact, unless you have some kind of modeling system, I'd recommend against it as it's unlikely you'd find any tonal qualities that you'd consider useful. It sounds more acoustic than electric, but it's really anemic, and EQ doesn't seem to help a whole lot. You can actually get better "acoustic" sounds out of the magnetic pickups and a modeler than you can out of the piezos alone, although if you do have a modeler, then the piezos will get you a more authentic acoustic sound. If you have a good modeler, then you may find yourself in the virtual instrument uncanny valley, where it's so real it's spooky  :laughing7:

I didn't install their MIDI solution, as I read too many low opinions of its polyphonic abilities and latency issues. Not that it's bad per se, but depending on what you want to do, it could disappoint. If you just want to leave the acoustic at home and use the electric for some folk tunes it would probably work fine. But, if you want to play fancier, more demanding things like you can on an electric and have it come out as MIDI, it's not quite up to the task. What I did install and consider to be the thing to use is the Fishman Triple Play. It's very fast - you can play glissandos and stretch notes, etc. all things that will frustrate most MIDI converters, and it just does it. Plus, it has no problem with polyphony. I think there are actually six pickups in their sensor, one for each string, so it doesn't have to burn up valuable clock ticks sussing out chords. Finally, even though it's doing a conversion and then transmitting it wirelessly, you won't suffer latency issues that can make your fingers trip over each other.

It's pricey little rascal, but considering it actually does what you want it to do, I guess you just have to call it the price of entry. What's cool is there are a lotta virtual instruments out there that are either sampled or very accurately modeled, so you can play whatever you want using your guitar. In practice, at least for me, that means I don't need to own a bass or a synth. I'd have to be a helluva lot better musician to play many other things, though. Just owning a piano or a drum set doesn't make you a pianist or a drummer  :laughing7:

 

[Godzooky75]

Don't mean to hijack the thread, but I had to +1 Cagey's comments about the Fishman TriplePlay - they're lots-o-fun!

As for the OP's question, I agree with BigSteve22 - "Choose the aesthetics you want, and the electronics you need."  (If only I could buy the talent I want too...)

 

[wildbill]

The ghost system installed on the Jazzmaster is pretty disappointing when run straight out to an amp. In fact, unless you have some kind of modeling system, I'd recommend against it as it's unlikely you'd find any tonal qualities that you'd consider useful. It sounds more acoustic than electric, but it's really anemic, and EQ doesn't seem to help a whole lot. You can actually get better "acoustic" sounds out of the magnetic pickups and a modeler than you can out of the piezos alone, although if you do have a modeler, then the piezos will get you a more authentic acoustic sound. If you have a good modeler, then you may find yourself in the virtual instrument uncanny valley, where it's so real it's spooky  :laughing7:

I didn't install their MIDI solution, as I read too many low opinions of its polyphonic abilities and latency issues. Not that it's bad per se, but depending on what you want to do, it could disappoint. If you just want to leave the acoustic at home and use the electric for some folk tunes it would probably work fine. But, if you want to play fancier, more demanding things like you can on an electric and have it come out as MIDI, it's not quite up to the task. What I did install and consider to be the thing to use is the Fishman Triple Play. It's very fast - you can play glissandos and stretch notes, etc. all things that will frustrate most MIDI converters, and it just does it. Plus, it has no problem with polyphony. I think there are actually six pickups in their sensor, one for each string, so it doesn't have to burn up valuable clock ticks sussing out chords. Finally, even though it's doing a conversion and then transmitting it wirelessly, you won't suffer latency issues that can make your fingers trip over each other.

It's pricey little rascal, but considering it actually does what you want it to do, I guess you just have to call it the price of entry. What's cool is there are a lotta virtual instruments out there that are either sampled or very accurately modeled, so you can play whatever you want using your guitar. In practice, at least for me, that means I don't need to own a bass or a synth. I'd have to be a helluva lot better musician to play many other things, though. Just owning a piano or a drum set doesn't make you a pianist or a drummer  :laughing7:

Thanks Cagey. I'm off to the Intertubes to edu-macate myself. It isn't something I need or that I'm good enough to make full use of but I sure like the concept and want to experiment.