Bumblebees...are they worth the hype?

[NQbass7]

I've tested ceramic against paper and oil caps, and I do hear a difference. The ones I bought (mallory) are like 5$, so what's the big deal if they're all in my head?

I'm guessing you knew which ones you were listening to when you heard the difference?

It's not a big deal as long as you know it's in your head. It's when people start ripping people off by saying that paper+oil caps sound better that it's a big deal.

 

[Patrick from Davis]

I have had better luck, perceived or real, with film caps over ceramic caps.  The price is about a buck vs $0.05, so on a $1,000 guitar that equals to about mouse nuts in terms of cost.  I put Luxe caps in a Les Paul because they made me laugh.  Do they work better, I doubt it other than I enjoy the guitar more knowing that truly hand made stuff is in it.  So it was worth it to me.  I don't know if my luck with ceramic caps is in my head or not.  But the film ones behaved much nicer to me.  And the cost is not prohibitive.  So I found a guy on eBay that sells Mallory tropical fish caps for about a buck a piece.  They are odd, and I dig them, so I use them.
Patrick

 

[Super Turbo Deluxe Custom]

I'd wager too, like everyone has said, the audible differences are not construction differences, rather what their value is labeled and what they actually are.

 

[Cagey]

I've tested ceramic against paper and oil caps, and I do hear a difference. The ones I bought (mallory) are like 5$, so what's the big deal if they're all in my head?

You didn't hear a difference between paper/oil vs. ceramics, you heard a difference in capacitive value, if you heard a difference at all. The power of suggestion is tremendous. You need real data based in fact.

You'll notice in all the tests you see on YouTube or any of the online discussions of the subject that nobody ever sits down with a measuring device and defines what exactly it is they're comparing. Ever. Isn't that weird? They're comparing unknown quantities and making proclamations. Fact is, they don't know, and as a result, you can't know. Yeah, they'll go through all sorts of swap-out tests with alligator leads and/or switches and feeble attempts to play the same part the same way while their mother screams at them from down the hall. But, physics says it can't be true and my ears concur, so I'll buy that. Natural law is tough taskmaster.

 

[Patrick from Davis]

There is also a lot of people that make professional audio gear that will not use ceramic caps in the audio pathways.  Whether it be mics, mic pre's, eq's, compressors, recording devices, or anything else I am forgetting.  In the audio path, not the high frequency sampling section, they will either use or replace with better quality parts.  I don't know if this is because of tradition, sales, or actual effect on the device.  But some of them are really knowledgeable about the physics and electrical engineering part of things.  For instance the guys at Black Lion Audio, they are nuts about making things better.  And brutally honest about what systems work or don't work.  They tend to upgrade the caps in the audio path of the systems they work on.

Now, none of this provides any proof.  But it makes me wonder why they do it for no reason.  I am sure that they could source cheaper ceramic caps that perform as the data sheet states they should.

One could also argue, not very well mind you, that the wholesale belief in paper physics can be just as large of a suggestive source in skewing one perception of sound.  Perhaps what is happening is something that is not being considered.  Yeah it is a weak argument from the proof basis, but it is roughly equivalent to the he who shouts loudest on the forum perspective. 

The final note, the word fact is a difficult one to use the way you did, because experimental data is not fact.  It is just what it is, data.
Patrick

 

[Cagey]

Intuition comes first, reasoning comes later, if at all. It happens to the best of us. As I said, the power of suggestion is tremendous. Repetition solidifies it. If somebody suggests an oil/paper cap is better, and you see it costs more, you're going to be inclined to believe it. Then if a bunch of people say the same thing, your opinion is reinforced. Before you know it, you're spreading the myth yourself and looking ignorant no matter how well educated you are.

If you follow the educational path to an electrical engineering degree, you'll never see any consideration given to capacitor packaging/construction types in any formula anywhere. It's all about capacitance. Packaging and working voltage considerations are application-driven, not electrical. You don't put a tubular .047 mike 1000wvdc oil/paper cap in a cell phone, you use a teeny-tiny ceramic .047 mike SMD. Why? Because you need .047 mikes that won't fail at 3vdc, and that's all she wrote. Now, if you're building power line filters, things change. You may still need a .047 part, but that SMD will blow up instantly while the oil/paper part will last a lifetime.

Guitars are the same way. You don't need a size 5 contactor to change pickups, and you don't need an oil/paper cap in an environment that only generates millivolts at microamps.

 

[pabloman]

There's no mojo meter. :headbang1:

 

[reluctant-builder]

I suppose, when it comes to buying snake-oil, I am lucky to have gotten some on the cheap. :icon_biggrin:

I bought a handful of Russian PIO caps and, with shipping, the whole shebang amounted to about $1.49 per cap. Yes, that's significantly more than $0.09 ... but for the sake of experimenting with wiring and "audiophilia" and hype and hoopla, I think I got off pretty cheap, when the real zealots will buy a charlatan Bumblebee for 60 quid.

I will attest that I don't *know* if I hear a difference between the chicklet caps that were in my Swede versus the NOS Russian PIOs, but I *think* I do.  :laughing7:

 

[Super Turbo Deluxe Custom]

There's no mojo meter. :headbang1:

Actually there is.  Mojo is just loose tolerances.  Find a neck that is warmer or brighter than what it's supposed to be, or pots and caps with values that are way off.  I'm convinced the Abigail Ybarra mojo was unintended.  She was one of a handful of employees that either couldn't follow a spec, or was one of the only that could.  She was the +/- that is mojo.

 

[mayfly]

As I said, the power of suggestion is tremendous. Repetition solidifies it. If somebody suggests an oil/paper cap is better, and you see it costs more, you're going to be inclined to believe it. Then if a bunch of people say the same thing, your opinion is reinforced. Before you know it, you're spreading the myth yourself and looking ignorant no matter how well educated you are.

In computer science, we called this "Proof by repeated assertion".

Marketing is full of this kind of thing 

And there is serious money to be made.  BTW, I have the patent on a new capacitor oil/water/film/ceramic capacitor process that combines the best of all types into a single style.  Unfortunately the dialectic is made of unobtanium.  I have some prototype caps available if anyone is interested.  only $100 each.  :evil4:

 

[Dan025]

only $100 that's a steal. i mean what are the mining and shipping costs from the planet pandora? never mind the cost of marines for security and those crazy avatar bodies that you control with your mind while your actual body sleeps. sign me up for 5 of 'em

 

[lucky13]

Heres some Great Bumble Bee alternatives, same .022µF 400V cap as the Classic Bumble Bee 4th cap down on this link: http://www.specialtyguitars.com/electronics/caps.html (AP Vitamin Q Oil & Paper Capacitors) except it only cost $13.80


Specialty Guitars has alot of great alternatives and high quality parts and some great tech info too, heres their link: http://www.specialtyguitars.com/


Guitarelectronics also has some great cap alternatives just as nice as Bumble Bee paper and oil if you feel its necessary and again around $15 bucks http://www.guitarelectronics.com/c=8bSRFT9Qs41OPxtRx35uBYxPu/category/electronic_parts.tone_capacitors/

RS Guitarworks sells some nice electronics as well including the Jensen paper and oil caps Bare Knuckle recomends using with their pickups heres their link http://store.rsguitarworks.net/Loose+Electronic+Parts/Capacitors.html

I do think that quality caps and pots are important and I certainly think its a mistake to spend alot of money on top quality guitar bodies and necks if your not going to do the same for the pickups (the Heart of the Guitar) in which case I dont understand why you wouldnt also buy quality caps and pots to insure premium tone qualitiy from those pickups.....

maybe the differences are very slight from part to part, but it seems to follow logic that the more quality you insure from each piece you buy that the end results will more likley than not be what your spending all that money to achieve.

Apples and Oranges after all do taste different and even do affect the body in different ways, so why wouldnt the quality and kind of capacitors and pickups and woods etc. etc.

Not saying you can hear it in your recordings, but then again something made Page's, Clapton's,Gilmour's guitar tones especially nice and they dont just use any guitar available for their gigs or recordings so I think in all reality its a bit silly to not go all the way if you can.

Bet that has some guys muttering b.s. .....lol  :icon_thumright:

 

[Jumble Jumble]

I don't understand why you wouldn't also buy quality caps and pots to insure premium tone quality from those pickups.....

Well, because caps don't make a difference. Pots do, in that the taper should be smooth and they shouldn't crackle. But caps are caps, and nobody can tell the difference without already knowing which is which.

Apples and Oranges after all do taste different and even do affect the body in different ways, so why wouldn't the quality and kind of capacitors and pickups and woods etc. etc.

Great logic there. I guess if apples and oranges taste different, then yeah, capacitors must sound different! I mean, the two are so intrinsically connected it's impossible to argue!

 

[lucky13]

Glad to know they make absolutely no difference, wonder why they market so many different kinds out of so many different materials, damn I could a made my guitar out of cheap stuff and got the same sounds ....


silly me to figure differently.....guess my next guitar will be a fender squire....save myself a boat load of cash....


Thanks for the tip, I got some plywood in the garage that I can use as well save myself the grief of Mahogany or Alder, cause they sound the same, would only make sense that plywood would pretty much cut it..... :laughing7:

See what I mean.

 

[Dan025]

i do believe caps make a difference, electrolytics might sound different from ceramics, but do oil in paper sound different than poly or whatever? who knows.

there are other parameters of a cap besides capacitance, cb used to mention something called the ESR (equivielnt series resistance) and there is a Q factor. i don't know much about it though. all i know is that gibson sells as bumble bees are the same type of cap as the green ones fender uses and you can buy at radio shack. it just happens to be in a different type of packaging what difference that makes i don't know. and how oil in paper compares i don't know but the capacitance values is more important than the other measurements.

i'm not gonna discourage people for being picky about components. ifyou wqant to try oil in paper then go for it just don't ever spend money for a gimick, even "expensive" or exotic caps should never cost hundres of dollars. "expensive" in the world of electronic components is the difference between a few pennies and a few dollars, when a company makes a billion of something it adds up really quick. if you are paying $20 for an electronic component you are getting ripped off even if it's a high dollar no expense spared kind of build.

 

[Jumble Jumble]

Glad to know they make absolutely no difference, wonder why they market so many different kinds out of so many different materials, damn I could a made my guitar out of cheap stuff and got the same sounds ....


silly me to figure differently.....guess my next guitar will be a fender squire....save myself a boat load of cash....


Thanks for the tip, I got some plywood in the garage that I can use as well save myself the grief of Mahogany or Alder, cause they sound the same, would only make sense that plywood would pretty much cut it..... :laughing7:

See what I mean.

Your argument is, if one thing can make a difference to the sound, then so must everything. I've got some iridium pickguard screws for sale if you're interested, $30 each. They give a 6.5% increase in sustain and eliminate buzziness from the upper mids. I mean, if you've spent $20 on a capacitor, why would you want to use cheap pickguard screws?

The fact that one thing has an effect is not proof that something else has an effect. Of course, I don't care if you want to spend your money on this stuff, but I do think that you shouldn't be telling other people to do it.

If you can tell the difference between these caps in a blind test, you will be the first. It really is that simple.

 

[Jumble Jumble]

wonder why they market so many different kinds out of so many different materials

Yeah, what possible incentive could they have for that? I c€rtainly¥ can't imagin£ what it i$.

 

[lucky13]

wasnt interested in convincing anyone of my opinion or choices, just thought I would add my own and offer up links to places to buy cheaper Bumble Bee alternatives.

that  being said, I choose to go with my old school thinking and build my guitars the way it makes "me" feel best, and for my taste, knowing that I did everything I could to make the best custom guitar I can, as thats why I build my own.

I realise some people dont have the money or opportunity to buy certain high end parts and there are plenty of alternatives out there and Im sure they're guitar will sound just fine, maybe even better than some of my more expensive custom options but "too me" that can only happen if the many parts alot of guys claim make no difference in tone, Do in fact matter, wether they were bought cheap or expensive.

for what its worth Im using $20 jensens on my current build with Bare Knuckle pickups and 550K pots also bought at a little higher price, much cheaper than the Bumble Bee Caps at $112 bucks for a set of 2 that I came across.

No offense if your opinion is different than mine, Old School and VooDoo tone thinking can get a little out there, but I will take the MoJo Magic route any day I can afford the option, even if it only amounts to a psychological advantage for myself.

P.S. I think Alder, Mahogany, Korina, Ash all sound differently in body woods, as well as, Maple, Rosewood and Ebony sound differently in  neck woods and SS frets sound brighter than traditional alloy frets and Warmoth Pro trussrods sound less traditional than traditional truss rods, and A2,A3,A4 and A5 magnets sound very different in pickups etc. etc. 

Oh and some caps are better than other caps.....but thats just my way of thinking.

theres your way, my way, and the truth, and its all the truth......to me, when it comes to these types of debates.

 

[Jumble Jumble]

There is an actual truth though - and it's quite an easy test to find it. Line up a bunch of capacitors, blindfold people, and then get them to try to identify different capacitors.

So far, in these experiments, nobody has been able to.

Like I say, I don't mind if you want to spend more money on stuff. In fact, despite the fact that when blindfolded, you can't hear a difference, that doesn't actually mean that you still can't hear a difference when you're no longer blindfolded. The mind plays amazing tricks on us, which is NOT a bad thing. When you hear an expensive capacitor, then, if you believe it will sound better, the incredible thing is: it will sound better. You will genuinely enjoy hearing it more. Basically, when you know it's an expensive capacitor, the brain feeds a bit of that information into the subjective evaluation of the sound, and the chemical/physical effect inside the brain is exactly the same as if it really did sound better. How awesome and mysterious is that?

However, if you were to be fooled into genuinely believeing you were listening to an expensive cap when you were actually listening to a cheap one, you would still get that benefit. Worth bearing in mind.

Funny you should mention Gilmour - I just went and got my copy of The Black Strat (the book, not the guitar) and had a look. It's just a crappy little ceramic disc capacitor in there.

 

[lucky13]

Yes, but its a Vintage strat and its owned by David Gilmour of Pink Floyd, thats the beauty, he got a magical capacitor with his magical alder bodied strat with magical pickups and a magical touch that turned out "Dark Side of the Moon" thats not just a ceramic cap, its a special ceramic cap....lol  :laughing7: