Bumblebees...are they worth the hype?

[Sb39]

Hi.  I'm sure this topic may have been already beaten to death on this board, but, I'm working on my Warmoth LP and am still facing the decision of forking over the bucks for bumblebees, or just going with standard capacitors.  I want to hear everyone's opinion that wants to offer one, good or bad.  No wrong opinions here.  Why do you love/hate/like the idea/not like the idea of them?

Rock on.

 

[mayfly]

Hi there,

They are not worth the hype.  Any good film cap will be as good or better sonically than a bumblebee cap.

Trevor

 

[bagman67]

There is broad agreement (but nothing that could be mistaken for unanimity) that capacitors, whatever their construction or material, will sound identical if they are the same value.  The choice to use Orange Drops or Bumblebees  or some other high-priced doodad is driven by a choice to be more or less "vintage correct", or to feel as though you've paid top dollar to put top quality components in your guitar, or a psychoacoustic perception of "better tone" that's a lot more psycho than acoustic. 


A $.49 capacitor will do the job equally well compared to some $62 (!) Bumblebee, from a purely sonic perspective.


And now for an opposing viewpoint...?  Who's up for it?

 

[bagman67]

I always feel smarter when I learn that Trevor agrees with me, since he's very smart and knowledgeable and pretty much invariably right. 


:icon_jokercolor:

 

[Cagey]

Mayfly and Bagman are both correct. It doesn't matter.

There are reasons capacitors have different dielectric materials and packaging, but very few of them apply in a guitar/bass. You could even use the little SMD (Surface-Mount Devices) type caps if you could manage a way to install them, and in fact they do on those trick tone pots like Stellartone makes...

These guys' claim to fame is rather than varying the resistance in series with the cap to change its frequency response, they use a multi-tap switch with a pile of caps in gradually increasing values. Supposed to sound better, but I'm skeptical. I think it's mostly snake oil with its attendant profit margin. But, you would have the ability to absolutely nail settings from one point to another, while the traditional method is infinitely variable. So, it's not completely useless if you're terminally anal. But, at $110/ea., you better really need repeatable settings.

 

[Jumble Jumble]

The hard evidence says they're not worth it; the people who need to justify having bought them, and the people who sell them, disagree.

Unfortunately, they're not entitled to their own facts.

 

[Patrick from Davis]

One of the guys at Premier Guitar wrote a bunch up on caps.  Whether you agree with him or not, this was yet another point of ire towards the Gibson marketing dept.

One thing to be aware of is the Gibson "replicas" from their Historic series. These caps only look like bumblebees; I x-rayed and also opened some of them, and inside there is a cheap, standard film cap, masked with a Bumblebee cover.

Read more

Patrick

 

[Cagey]

In the Premier Guitar article, Mr. Wacker starts off well in part 1 and appears to know what he's talking about, but then he jumps off the cliff with the rest of the lemmings in part 2. Outside of L. Ron Hubbard's "Dianetics", I don't think I've ever read so much finely distilled and flowery bullshite in my life, and I spend a lot of time on political forums. Although, he is right about electrolytics and I'm sure he's right about the "bumblebees".

The way capacitors work is well-defined and based in physical law; there is no interpretation needed or applicable. Why people insist on doing so is a mystery for the ages. I suspect it boils down to the basic human need for understanding, and in the case of guitars, we want to understand why SRV or Eric Clapton sound so damn good and we suck. There must be a reason, and it can't possibly be our fault! So, it's strings, wood, finishes, capacitors, pickups, on and on - the list of suspects is long. Fortunately, capacitors are relatively cheap, so it's easy to tie them to the whipping post.

 

[bagman67]

[Screed-let deleted]  Fortunately, capacitors are relatively cheap[...].

Except Bumblebees (new or "vintage.")


Phew.

 

[Patrick from Davis]

Regardless of his language or opinions, if you were trying to make a period correct piece, for whatever reason, it would be rather annoying to buy the Gibson product only to find they just took a film cap and covered it up.  Arguments can be made in any direction, but that is a bit much to spend $60-110 on.  I don't mind paying a bit more for something that is hand built or a rare piece that is NOS.  Whether it does anything special or not, I am willing to rationalize it took some extra effort, thus money.  When you add a bit of bondo and spraypaint, and call that a $100 dollar addition, I am a bit under enthused.
Patrick

 

[bagman67]

I agree, Patrick.  Especially when you consider the same electrical effect can be realized for $.09*.



http://www.jameco.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Product_10001_10001_1947351_-1



At $59.95 for the Bumblebee, and $.09 for the Jameco part, Gibson's charging roughly 666 times the price of the Jameco.  Coincidence? 


Obviously this does not take into account the vintage-replica builder's particular needs, but still and all, if the Bumblebee is essentially a fake, is a 66,600 percent differential really justified?


I guess it is if the market says it is, but wow.


*:  (plus minimum order of 10 parts, plus shipping, yadda yadda, I know the comparison is imperfect)

 

[Cagey]

Except Bumblebees (new or "vintage.")

Phew.

I know. Insane, isn't it? But, they're not the only ones. I've seen where guys will go in the other direction, and opt for more modern caps that are quite expensive. Sprague's "Vitamin Q" caps, for instance...

Very nice caps - oil over paper, aluminum housings with glass/epoxy seals, breakover voltages of 1000vdc+... just wicked parts. Expensive as hell. But, .05µf is .05µf so unless you're guarding a circuit that sees voltages like that, there's no point in using them.

 

[Dan025]

not worth the price, but you might not want to use electrolytic or ceramic, i don't have any empirical proof that they sound bad but it is a consensus among audiophiles that ceramic caps may sound harsh and electrolitic may sound muddy but your pedals are loaded with either one, the other, or both so unless you want to tear down and upgrade all your pedals as well it probably isn't all that important to begin with. any metalized film or polyester film cap should be fine and are perfectly affordable though not quite as affordable as the ceramic or electrolytic caps that they use in pedals and solid state amp.

you are better off choosing the right size cap that makes the tone control usable than to buy an expensive cap.

as far as fancy multi-cap tone circuits go, well in the sense of a low pass filter it makes no difference to the math, the output will roll off at the frequency that the impedance to ground is less than the impedance of the pickup. but as far as resonant peaks go it does make a difference. is it better? no actually i think after some testing i prefer the traditional tone control or atleast a variation of it. the idea of dropping the resonant peak is to sorta emulate a hotter pickup and get that midrange hump, you really don't need 20 settings for that, 2 is fine. and getting that midrange hump on a single coil won't really give you the proper p-90 growl. the coil is too different.

a traditional tone does a better job of cutting the upper harmonics without making some midrange frequency overbearing, i add a 4.7k resistor in series to the tone (like the fender grease bucket control) as well to prevent it from becoming a grounded cap and giving a strong resonant peak. what i find even better is a lawrence q-filter which inserts an inductor as well so the presence is retained but the icepick frequencies are cut but it doesn't make much difference in a dirty sound that will likely cut the presence anyway. but inductors are more costly than capacitors, still a q-filter costs less than the period correct capacitors.

 

[Super Turbo Deluxe Custom]

A cap has a value, and by definition and design, electricity does not pass through it.  What the dielectric is or how it is a tone flavorer.....well, I'll sit back and listen.

 

[Jumble Jumble]

"a consensus among audiophiles"

... is pretty much the opposite of a fact.

 

[Sb39]

Thanks for the input, guys.  In the end, I went for an Allparts potentiometer/wiring kit, which has two 0.02 mfd caps in it.  They look either ceramic or epoxy in the photo, I can't tell which, as long as they work, I don't really mind.

 

[Dan025]

"a consensus among audiophiles"

... is pretty much the opposite of a fact.

that's why i said i have no empirical evidence.. and threw in the fact that most effects pedals are loaded with both ceramic and electrolytic capacitors... also just because something is subjective doesn't mean it's wrong. but without recording yourself with a lossless codec at a high sample rate and doing an a/b/a/b/b/a comparison preferably with a robot playing the guitar and testing each cap for accuracy in value it might be difficult to make a fair comparison.

i guess the point is i have never heard anything bad about said a polyester film cap (usually green and fairly small) from any circle not even the purist crowds and they are affordable and available anywhere, even at radio shack so there is no reason not to use them.

i was also trying to be unbiased. the op can take what ever he wants from what i said. i really don't have any strong opinion other than paper in oil (which the bumble bee's are not in reality) is purely for period correctness.

 

[Jumble Jumble]

No worries, it was just a flippant comment about audiophiles in general.

 

[Patrick from Davis]

Ceramic caps look a lot like a generic advil with two wires in it.  Clay colored, or green ones.  The other ones tend to have a candy shell on them.  Unless they are designed for PCB's, in which case they look like little tall boxes.  The long and the short, regardless of what type you want to use, or if you believe that there is a difference between the types, the Gibson bumblebees are as close to robbery as it comes.
Patrick

 

[Jet-Jaguar]

I've tested ceramic against paper and oil caps, and I do hear a difference. The ones I bought (mallory) are like 5$, so what's the big deal if they're all in my head?