Bridges and Tone

[JZZZM3]

You all do this quite a bit and have a ton more hardware experience than I do. Here's my question: Of the various hardtail bridges that Warmoth offers, what are the differences in tone?

For example: If I want a rich creamy Jazz tone out of a guitar, I know a Mahogany Body with Mahogany Neck or Indan Rosewood, Wenge or somethng will give me excellent mids and lows and help bring out the cream. P90's or SD Jazz Pickups,...not to mention other vendors have got great pickups to round out the edges and bring in the silk. What I don't know is what hardtails work best for what. I've always had trems in various forms. I think I had a hardtail on an axe when I was like 15 ...but since that was like 31 years ago, things have changed a bit.

What I'm thinking about is a chambered carved LPS in Mahogany with a Indian Rosewood or Wenge neck (trying to make an pseudo - Alvin Lee ES out of a LPS) . SD has an awesome SH2 that's I've played before that would be perfect for the neck and maybe an SH6 or SH8 in the bridge just to add some flavor. It'll add a bit of anger to the pork pie hat. LOL But wood and pups are only part of the equation. My personal opinion is that Bridges affect quite a bit of the tone two. Certainly Strat Trems... don't sound like Bigsby. So I'm just wondering about hardtails. Does a TOM\STP sound different then a GOTOH 510? And the others?

Your thoughts?

 

[Dan025]

well the length of the string behind the saddle has some effect and many say that the angle that the string breaks over the saddle is also important. with a tuneomatic you can wrap the strings over top of the stop bar for a slightly softer tone. not that i hear the difference. really your picking tecnique will have more effect than the bridge.
the saddle material has an effect also. a hardened steel saddle will sound bright generally softer materials sound slightly warmer but aluminum can be bright and very resonant.
imho i think you are over thinking it, with warm woods and pups, tone controls and playing style you should be able to use any bridge available but if you want a recomendation the TOM is a common choice and  has some flexability in how it is strung. i haven't used the gotoh so i don't have an opinion but it appears to be a fine product.

 

[whyachi]

Times like this, I love being a bass player. The answer to every bridge question is, "Badass."

 

[rockskate4x]

Times like this, I love being a bass player. The answer to every bridge question is, "Badass."

:laughing7:haha, yeah, it's not quite so simple for us average guitarists...

 

[-CB-]

The Les Paul snobbery crowd will tell you how the certain ABR-1's are better than others, how certain Nashville TOM's suck worse than others, but they all suck, how the Pigtail bridge is great, how the Pigtail stop bar is the best, how the Pigtail stop bar is the best, but not as good as the Gotoh....

Then there's the Telecaster fanatics, who claim one or the other or yet another is the hold grail of bridges.

I say - doodly-squat to all of em.  Buy the bridge that has the materials and features you like - for instance brass or stainless saddles or bridge plate, or TOM vs wraptail or whatever.  The point is - before all thie gobble-d-gook came onto the market, there were many great recordings made by many famous and non famous musicians, on the rag tag plain jane run-of-the-mill bridges that came on guitars from day one.

I personally would like something "different" in a Tele bridge, not for the tone, but for the looks.  Brass... sure.

 

[tfarny]

Bridges definitely affect the tone a lot, but I don't think the main effect is really the "EQ" that we normally think of, but the length of note sustain, the character of the note decay, etc. - if a bridge is heavy and or 'solid' it will probably contribute to a bit more sustain and "fatter" decay quality, ex. TOM. If the bridge doesn't tend to secure the string tightly, letting it move relatively easily  - think floating trem and a lightweight trem block - you'll probably end up with less sustain and a more "hollow" or "springy" or "airy" decay quality. All else being equal, ymmv. Then you get into string break angles, total string length, yadda yadda. Just get something of decent quality and you'll be fine.

All the stuff about brass versus steel saddles, etc., I'm a bit leery of - I'm sure it makes a difference but at some point it all gets a bit silly. I would like to try the callaham stainless steel TOM though.

 

[JZZZM3]

Thanks for the replies, folks. Yeah, I don't see bridges as EQ really but more along the lines of sustain...actual string vibration.

And I'm definitely over thinking the whole thing. LOL But that’s the fun part of it really, the cosmic search to find the perfect tone. Besides there’s economics involved more me, I don’t have the funds to “try” things out other than going to the local guitar shop and annoying the tar out of them by fingering all the merchandise.

So let me toss something else out here. If I was to get a chambered body in mahogany would it be better to get a string through to grab more of the wood tone? Combine that with pretty much any TOM? So I’m seeing this along technical lines. The saddles play a huge part in sustain but the anchors play more of a role in overtone…I think. They do in trems anyway…to my ears.

So that’s why I wonder about stop tails or wrap-arounds. Do stop tails basically transfer the overtone of what they are embedded into? And in that case does mass equate like it does in trems. Right? If I had some thin piece of tin holding the ball end…the string would have a tin overtone versus say a thicker hunk of brass or steel. I assuming wrap around would gain even more mass and transfer the over tone of whatever material they were wrapped with. String through would have the most mass. Am I thinking correctly or is there something that I’m not aware of…or does any of this even matter?

 

[tfarny]

Sorry, none of what you just posted makes any sense to me. How can your ears hear that the anchors play the role in overtones but the saddles control the sustain? My ears can't hear that kind of stuff.  :icon_scratch: :icon_scratch:not meaning to start a flame war, but you are definitely way overthinking this. Just get a good quality bridge of whatever type you think fits the sounds you want to get and you'll be fine. The questions you're asking need an acoustics lab and an R&D budget to be answered.

 

[JZZZM3]

Sorry, none of what you just posted makes any sense to me. How can your ears hear that the anchors play the role in overtones but the saddles control the sustain? My ears can't hear that kind of stuff.  :icon_scratch: :icon_scratch:not meaning to start a flame war, but you are definitely way overthinking this. Just get a good quality bridge of whatever type you think fits the sounds you want to get and you'll be fine. The questions you're asking need an acoustics lab and an R&D budget to be answered.

Fair enough...no flame war from me. I'm just not that familiar with hardtails. Kind of why I was asking the questions. I was on Stewmac's site and like the look at quality on some of the wrap arounds. And the hipshot baby grand is kind of a pretty bridge tailpiece combo. Anyone ever use it before?

http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Bridges,_tailpieces/Electric_guitar,_non-trem_bridges/Hipshot_Baby_Grand_Bridge.html

 

[Dan025]

i don't know what exactly overtones are. i don't speak to musician that have that kind of ear that often. but energy transfer depends on the materials mechanical properties. hard steals are good but heavy and might not transfer the harmonics into the wood. that is not to say harmonics are lost with mass but that they aren't transfered into the body and more or less stay in the string. a light aluminum piece would transfer different but to be honest my ear can't tell the difference between a stop tail piece or string through so i might be the wrong person to give a satisfactory answer.

also is it possible that in your search for the perfect rounded upper end and smooth tones that you will go to far and get nothing but mud?

 

[rockskate4x]

i don't know what exactly overtones are. i don't speak to musician that have that kind of ear that often. but energy transfer depends on the materials mechanical properties. hard steals are good but heavy and might not transfer the harmonics into the wood. that is not to say harmonics are lost with mass but that they aren't transfered into the body and more or less stay in the string. a light aluminum piece would transfer different but to be honest my ear can't tell the difference between a stop tail piece or string through so i might be the wrong person to give a satisfactory answer.

also is it possible that in your search for the perfect rounded upper end and smooth tones that you will go to far and get nothing but mud?

I'm not sure that any of this "tone transfered to the wood" business is a desireable thing. I've heard multiple times from knowledgeable people on this forum (and other places) that the tone that is in the STRINGS and not in the wood is what is heard in an electric guitar. This is of course different in acoustic guitars where you want the whole top to resonate. Back to solid bodies, my best guess as to why the wood would change the tone is not because it adds to the sound, but takes away. Mahogany/Korina takes away some brightness from the strings which results in a warm tone and maple takes less brightness from the strings resulting in a brighter tone. Vibrating wood means less vibration in the strings.

 

[tfarny]

Just an elementary bit to help keep this in the real world - strings vibrate. They produce a characteristic pattern of vibration we hear as sound. Magnetic pickups translate this string vibration to electrical impulses, which pass through the controls, out the cord and into the rig where they are radically amplified and transformed. That is all.
Any effect of bridges, body woods, mounting springs, etc., affects sound only to the extent that it affects the strings' vibrations. If the bridge itself happens to vibrate, that will affect the sound only to the extent that it changes the vibration of the strings - the pickups do not directly sense anything the bridge will do.
To the extent that a ball end of a string being anchored in aluminim versus zinc versus steel affects the way the string vibrates, when plucked, fine. But the thickness of string, construction of string, and the manner in which it is plucked, obviously have a lot more influence than the metal the bridge is made of.

 

[-CB-]

Overtones - what you're really hearing is "brilliance" in the tone, since overtones are rather high frequency, depending on the root of the note played.

Low E is about 82hz while two octaves up on the high E is 1320hz or so...

2nd order harmonics are going to start at 164hz and run up to 2640hz - all within the spectrum of the amplifiers speaker

4th order harmonics are going to be 325hz up to 5280hz... the beginning of the speaker poopin' out.

Its all about brilliance, the "specularity" of the note.

And let me rephrase what I said about being all doodly-squat.  What I mean there, is a tele bridge is going to be a tele bridge, a strat is a strat, a tom is a tom....what does matter... yes.. the length of string behind the bridge.  But all the mumbo jumbo fancy schmancy stuff, is still doodly squat in my book.

 

[JZZZM3]

The "classic" jazz electric guitar sound came from hollow arch tops with floating pickups. Of course they had issues with feedback and lack of sustain because of body vibrations. Hence the whole reason for solid bodies...I got that part. Ive been around the block a few times.

I guess, I need to make this less complicated quesion. What I'm thinking about doing is the LPS with a Baritone neck...SD SH2 Jazz in the neck with a SH6 or SH8 in the bridge...just to add some flavor. What I don't want to do is spend big $$$ and get a P.O.S. hardtail that takes away from the intended sound because I know nothing about all these new (to me) hardtails. In fact, this would be my first warmoth build...so I'm ignorant about quite a few things. What I’m after is being able to run the walking bass part of “Dream a Little” with a Baritone’s inflection and drama and add some heavy thump to “Goodbye Pork Pie Hat”. That’s my goal.

I don’t really play metal, I'm 46 years old. I play fusion mostly. Slow Blues, Classic Rock. I dig Jazz…it’s friggin hard and pi$$es me off.

 

[Dan025]

I'm not sure that any of this "tone transfered to the wood" business is a desireable thing. I've heard multiple times from knowledgeable people on this forum (and other places) that the tone that is in the STRINGS and not in the wood is what is heard in an electric guitar. This is of course different in acoustic guitars where you want the whole top to resonate. Back to solid bodies, my best guess as to why the wood would change the tone is not because it adds to the sound, but takes away. Mahogany/Korina takes away some brightness from the strings which results in a warm tone and maple takes less brightness from the strings resulting in a brighter tone. Vibrating wood means less vibration in the strings.

i agree and disagree. yes the wood does "take away" a bit but the wood carries vibrations and does resonate and when two resonating systems are coupled there is interference and they can cancel each other or work together. when two strings are in close proximity and only coupled by the air that they vibrate striking one string can cause both to vibrate. so you should have the same effect between the vibrating strings and the body itself. there is feedback that can add to as well as subtract from the harmonics. these relationships are part of what makes an instrument sound "musical" for lack of a better term. a sythesized note with only the fundemental frequency and no harmonics and filtering of the harmonics will sound bland. also yes the wood will have losses other than interference. and yes for the best sustain you want no losses other than the magnetic feild that the string vibrates but tone and sustain are diferent things and often what a person perceives as good tone is contrary to what gives good sustain.
 i wasn't sure of a specifiaclly defined meaning of overtone so i avoid using it and say harmonics to be clear on my meaning so thank you CB for the definition.

 

[Schlieren]

I wasn't thinking at all about tone / sustain or any of that when I bought a bridge for the Tele I'm building, I was thinking I wanted a tremolo, so I did a bunch of research and the Trem-King was what I found had what I wanted: a tremolo which stays in position when bending strings with one's fingers, which stays in position after having lost a string, when using alternate tunings, &c.  Basically, a tremolo that's not, yet that has a bridge plate like a Tele bridge.

Obviously it's not going to sound like a hardtail, but I wonder if anyone could speculate as to what it'll sound like.  The bridge seems like a pretty thick piece of metal, so I guess from what I've been reading here about dielectric and eddy currents, that'll have a different effect on the bridge pickup, depending on the physical composition of the metal.  Also, the strings go from the zinc block over saddles which are fixed mechanically to the bridge (sliding over what are like graphtec rollers or something like that), so I'm guessing it'll be somewhere in tone between a hardtail and a normal tremolo?

And what if I, say, lock the tremolo with a tremol-no or a block?

I guess I'll find out...

 

[MUYFUE]

Man, I'm way too late to this one!
:doh:
HAHA! the R&D lab would help!
Bridge choice can become a bigg 'ol pile o' noodles! !

Keep in mind your actual requirements first...What do you want the bridge to do? Once you choose a bridge that matches the funcions you require, then look at different manufacturers. Now-A-Days, almost every bridge type is available in a wide range of finishes and materials. 

 

[Superlizard]

If you think bridges affect tone, wait'll you deal with the amp/speaker side of things.  :icon_jokercolor:

(honestly though - I think out of all components that contribute to tone, the amp/speaker part is the least considered by many)

 

[Dan025]

I wasn't thinking at all about tone / sustain or any of that when I bought a bridge for the Tele I'm building, I was thinking I wanted a tremolo, so I did a bunch of research and the Trem-King was what I found had what I wanted: a tremolo which stays in position when bending strings with one's fingers, which stays in position after having lost a string, when using alternate tunings, &c.  Basically, a tremolo that's not, yet that has a bridge plate like a Tele bridge.

Obviously it's not going to sound like a hardtail, but I wonder if anyone could speculate as to what it'll sound like.  The bridge seems like a pretty thick piece of metal, so I guess from what I've been reading here about dielectric and eddy currents, that'll have a different effect on the bridge pickup, depending on the physical composition of the metal.  Also, the strings go from the zinc block over saddles which are fixed mechanically to the bridge (sliding over what are like graphtec rollers or something like that), so I'm guessing it'll be somewhere in tone between a hardtail and a normal tremolo?

And what if I, say, lock the tremolo with a tremol-no or a block?

I guess I'll find out...

hmm trem king doesn't have a specs list that i can find. well i'm sure it'll sound ok. the traditional steel plates sound fine but are prone to micrphonics unless the pup is mounted rigidly. and brass sound musical although there are losses. my post on the titanium, that is if i get around to making it, was more of a what if it could sound better. maybe that's why half tele bridges are poping up. when it really comes down to it a person could buy a half bridge and mount the pup with plastic or wood. titanium would look cool and be nice to show off though, i mean who has a titanium bridge?
let me know what you think of that trem king though.

 

[Schlieren]

Oh, I'll be definitely be posting some sound clips and I'll try to make sure what colors them the most is the guitar itself; I suppose I could just record direct-in but I'll put up some samples out of a Music Man and maybe my little practice amp too...