Brass Block on a Floyd...Opinions?

[Strat Avenger]

Does it really make a difference?

 

[Death by Uberschall]

Yes.  :icon_thumright:

 

[Cagey]

Does [a brass block] really make a difference?

The people who sell them certainly like to make that case.

Although, I will say I have a brass + Graphtech saddle bridge on one of my Teles, and it's a very vibrant instrument. Noticeably so even by strangers. Thing is raucous for an electric, and I have a hard time attributing that to anything other than that bridge.

I just put together a Strat with a Floyd on it, and it's pretty loud acoustically as well, even though it has a small block made out of mystery metal. So, go figure.

If you look at a Floyd's construction, the strings don't even contact the "sustain" block. They're clamped in the saddles, rather than run through the block like most other vibratos. Also, the block is actually pretty small relative to most, and exists mainly as an attachment point for the counterbalance springs. So, it's tough to say. Making it out of brass may make a difference, but my guess is that if it does, it's a small difference.

 

[Jumble Jumble]

I have one and I'm not convinced. Unfortunately I didn't get to compare, as the minute the Floyd arrived I dismantled it and rebuilt it with the brass block.

I guess it does make it feel satisfyingly heavy. The guitar definitely isn't quite as "dead" as other Floyded guitars I've owned or played, but I have no idea if that's down to the block or the fact that I used the brightest woods for everything.

The block I got is this one:


37mm Brass "L" Sustain Block

I got the L shape just to increase the mass even more. If I'm buying into the "increased mass matters" thing then I might as well buy all the way in.

The L shape did cause a very small problem. I was using the recessed Floyd rout, and when I came to pull the trem up, the protruding part of the block contacted a small bit of wood in the back of the guitar. Not a problem for me as I was using a trem cover, and so I just removed the wood in question to free up the trem. But if you're at all worried about that, or if you're not going to use a trem cover and you want things to be neat, then perhaps go for one that isn't L shaped.

I can't remember how I found out that 37mm was the right size - It must be something to do with whether the trem is recessed, that sort of thing.

I also got some of their noise-free springs which do work as advertised BUT:  they're coated with something so that they don't make a noise, and that stuff isn't conductive. So I had to file a little of the finish off at each end of one of the strings so that the block was electrically connected to the claw. Worth remembering.

 

[DangerousR6]

Does [a brass block] really make a difference?

The people who sell them certainly like to make that case.

Although, I will say I have a brass + Graphtech saddle bridge on one of my Teles, and it's a very vibrant instrument. Noticeably so even by strangers. Thing is raucous for an electric, and I have a hard time attributing that to anything other than that bridge.

I just put together a Strat with a Floyd on it, and it's pretty loud acoustically as well, even though it has a small block made out of mystery metal. So, go figure.

If you look at a Floyd's construction, the strings don't even contact the "sustain" block. They're clamped in the saddles, rather than run through the block like most other vibratos. Also, the block is actually pretty small relative to most, and exists mainly as an attachment point for the counterbalance springs. So, it's tough to say. Making it out of brass may make a difference, but my guess is that if it does, it's a small difference.

The strings don't have to come in contact with the block. It's about frequency resonance, and brass being much denser than mystery metal, it will resonate much better..So the answer to the question is yes... :icon_thumright:

 

[Patrick from Davis]

I would guess that the brass resonates less.  If you have a mass of material on a fulcrum and two sets of springs holding it balanced on that pivot, there should be a transfer of energy from one set of spring to the other if they are put in motion.  The mechanical energy has to pass through the mass to transfer the vibrations to the second set of springs.  By changing the density of the material being held, the energy required to move it has to change as well, if we keep the amount of resonance constant.  More mass, more molecules to move, more energy required.  So for the same energy being put into the system, the denser block should move less.  I understand that the elasticy of the material adds another level to the discussion, but oh well.  I am guessing it is a harder barrier for the energy to transfer through, therefore it stays in the strings.
Patrick

 

[DangerousR6]

I would guess that the brass resonates less.  If you have a mass of material on a fulcrum and two sets of springs holding it balanced on that pivot, there should be a transfer of energy from one set of spring to the other if they are put in motion.  The mechanical energy has to pass through the mass to transfer the vibrations to the second set of springs.  By changing the density of the material being held, the energy required to move it has to change as well, if we keep the amount of resonance constant.  More mass, more molecules to move, more energy required.  So for the same energy being put into the system, the denser block should move less.  I understand that the elasticy of the material adds another level to the discussion, but oh well.  I am guessing it is a harder barrier for the energy to transfer through, therefore it stays in the strings.
Patrick

In most respects you are correct, but like most engineers I've know, you're over thinking it. Trying to use physics to make a calculation, and as we all know what works on paper doesn't always translate into the real world. Riddle me this: why are cymbals and bells made from brass and or bronze.  :icon_biggrin:

 

[Cagey]

Brass is harder than the metals it's alloyed from (copper/zinc), but still retains good ductility so it's easy to machine and cast. One of those deals where the sum is greater than the parts.

You can't make a material more or less resonant. Materials on their own aren't resonant. Resonance depends on a structure or assembly's frequency and inertia and response to external stimulation.

 

[DangerousR6]

Again, like I said, why do you think bells and cymbals are made from brass and bronze.. :doh:

 

[Death by Uberschall]

If you're using a Floyd with the cheap "wonder" metal block you will see more of a difference.
If you're using the OFR with the small original brass block, there will some difference, but not so much.

 

[Cagey]

Again, like I said, why do you think bells and cymbals are made from brass and bronze.. :doh:

Because:

• If they were made out of chocolate, the bass player would eat them, and the drummer would want to kick his ass
• Anything else would sound dead
• Brass is pretty
• Monkeys fly out they butt

 

[DangerousR6]

Again, like I said, why do you think bells and cymbals are made from brass and bronze.. :doh:

Because:

• If they were made out of chocolate, the bass player would eat them, and the drummer would want to kick his ass
• Anything else would sound dead
• Brass is pretty
• Monkeys fly out they butt

correct... :rock-on:

 

[Jet-Jaguar]

A while back, a guy on the SD forums posted his review, with sound clips. 

http://www.seymourduncan.com/forum/showthread.php?223539-Killer-Guitar-Components-Trem-Block-Reviews-post-em-here

IMHO, the brass sounded better than the titanium.

 

[swarfrat]

I would not at all be surprised if the ratio of mass to some other was more important than the actual mass of the block itself. Dissimilar masses is a key element in many vibrattion dampening systems.

 

[Cagey]

I would not at all be surprised if the ratio of mass to some other was more important than the actual mass of the block itself. Dissimilar masses is a key element in many vibrattion dampening systems.

If we're talking about the mass of the sustain block on a vibrato bridge, I would not be at all surprised if none of that made much difference at all. Stubby was going to do some experiments with hollow tubes a while back... not sure where that project is at the moment. But, I suspect that was born of a similar belief. Be interested in knowing where that is or what was learned.

But, going by physics, if "sustain" block mass/inertia was more important to tone/sustain, then you'd expect to see some lead or depleted uranium sustain blocks. If it was a resonance thing, then you'd expect no blocks at all - just the bare minimum structure necessary to hold the string tension against the spring tension without bending.

One of those extremes has to be right, if the sustain block is the controlling influence, right? So... why don't we see either of them?

Things that make you go hmmm...

 

[swarfrat]

It actually does enter the equation for enharmonicity somehow

 

[Cagey]

You also have to consider the anchor points. You could have the most mass made of the the hardest material, but if it's bearing against a couple pivot points that are mounted in some slushy wood like Basswood, you're fighting a losing battle. Punch it into something like Maple, and the situation improves dramatically. I would submit that there's more influence there than in the bridge itself.

 

[Jumble Jumble]

I think that although the strings don't go through the block like on a Strat etc, it's still fair to say that the strings are clamped to the block. They're clamped into the saddles and then the saddle is held down hard by the string against the bridge plate and thus the block as the block and the plate are bolted together tightly. I'm not trying to argue one way or the other with this, just think that mechanically the strings are in contact with the block's mass.

Also I'd say that the block that came with the OFR I recently bought fits the description "the bare minimum structure necessary" pretty well. It was a tiny, thin, light piece of... whatever.

 

[AutoBat]

I want a block made from depleted uranium (non-weapons grade, of course).

On second thought maybe not, since I'm fond of the region that that part of the guitar usually rests over.

 

[Cagey]

Not to worry. The "depleted" part of the description says what you need to know there. For all intents and purposes, it's not radioactive. However, it's still a toxic metal, so you shouldn't eat or inhale it. I don't know about you, but I've been able to restrain myself from snorting or chewing on my guitar's bridge components <grin>