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Brasilian rosewood not shipped outside the USA

If you can make Dalbergia Nigra grows there, you can sell, but people told me once it needs more than 20 years to growl, IIRC...

And listened to that some guys have made it when the law of no selling came... not sure if it's true...
 
Alfang said:
Where can I get my hands on some rosewood seeds, I wanna plant a rosewood tree in my backyard.

I'd like a brasilian rosewood seed please:  Wow that's a lot of seeds, how many is a brasillian

Unless kidding, it probably wouldn't grow in the Pacific Northwest.
 
Super Turbo Deluxe Custom said:
Alfang said:
Where can I get my hands on some rosewood seeds, I wanna plant a rosewood tree in my backyard.

I'd like a brasilian rosewood seed please:  Wow that's a lot of seeds, how many is a brasillian

Unless kidding, it probably wouldn't grow in the Pacific Northwest.

Don't underestimate the effects of Global Warming...
 
bendeg said:
baskruit said:
bendeg said:
I don't think customs guys are wood experts...Well, maybe...
Actually, I think they are. I'm convinced they have experts in various fields.

Indeed, that makes sense...

Do you think they have time to check every single little piece of wood? If you were to export 20 pianos it'd justify to verify them but I dont think they can be bothered to check every single thing.

Now I dont know if Warmoth put's anywhere that it's Brazilian wood but otherwise you'd be pretty much safe to have it sent by someone else to you that is not Warmoth. Just my thought. I'd do it  :-\
 
haceteunosmates said:
bendeg said:
baskruit said:
bendeg said:
I don't think customs guys are wood experts...Well, maybe...
Actually, I think they are. I'm convinced they have experts in various fields.

Indeed, that makes sense...

Do you think they have time to check every single little piece of wood? If you were to export 20 pianos it'd justify to verify them but I dont think they can be bothered to check every single thing.

Now I dont know if Warmoth put's anywhere that it's Brazilian wood ...

Yes, warmoth labels the box as Brazilian.  I asked.
 
NonsenseTele said:
people told me once it needs more than 20 years to growl, IIRC...

I guess that's why Warwick doesn't use Rosewood on their basses. No growl.:icon_jokercolor:
 
Customs would probably rather harass you than the drug runners. You're less dangerous and less work.
 
baskruit said:
bendeg said:
I don't think customs guys are wood experts...Well, maybe...
Actually, I think they are. I'm convinced they have experts in various fields.



Thems the rules we have to live under... get used to it. Warmoth, I suspect, will have a dwindling stock of Brazilian Rosewood as will some other manufacturers. But over time it will all be used up and then that's it folks. Warmoth and others may be able to horse trade within their own country for wood but they will have a hard time sourcing any new stock from Brazil, if it can be sourced at all. And it only grows in Brazil AFAIK.

Dunno what all the fuss is about a wood that is restricted so heavily that it cannot be sourced in some countries now and in some, like the USA, only from local pre CITES stock that is diminishing. There are plenty of great looking wood around and the tone this wood brings to the mix can be approximated with others.
 
Super Turbo Deluxe Custom said:
Alfang said:
Where can I get my hands on some rosewood seeds, I wanna plant a rosewood tree in my backyard.

I'd like a brasilian rosewood seed please:  Wow that's a lot of seeds, how many is a brasillian

Unless kidding, it probably wouldn't grow in the Pacific Northwest.

It probably will.  We have rainforests near Mt Rainier.  I'll plant some in my yard if anyone can show me where to get seeds!

-Mark
 
AprioriMark said:
Super Turbo Deluxe Custom said:
Alfang said:
Where can I get my hands on some rosewood seeds, I wanna plant a rosewood tree in my backyard.

I'd like a brasilian rosewood seed please:  Wow that's a lot of seeds, how many is a brasillian

Unless kidding, it probably wouldn't grow in the Pacific Northwest.

It probably will.  We have rainforests near Mt Rainier.  I'll plant some in my yard if anyone can show me where to get seeds!

-Mark

Brazilian Rosewood DON'T grow in Amazonia... It used to grow in the coast, there is very few forrest in out coast now and none BR RW...
 
Grow your own fretboard:

http://www.seeds2yous.com/servlet/the-4507/Tipuana-Tipu-(Rosewood),-5/Detail

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=270551395438&rvr_id=&crlp=1_263602_263622&UA=WXS%3F&GUID=e6cb1a3e1260a0e20357c3b7ffa71ac0&itemid=270551395438&ff4=263602_263622#ht_500wt_928

 
It can be shipped, but only under the CITES rules. 

Rosewood is still available from Brazil, harvested from the leftover stumps of trees cut pre-CITES.  It's carefully controlled, limited availability, and comes with CITES documentation.  You can find companies selling bookmatched Brazilian rosewood boards with full CITES documentation with a web search.

There's a good chance that Warmoth may not have proof of origin from their old stocks of rosewood purchased pre-CITES (prior to 1975).  In this case it's probably impossible to get an export permit to allow the rosewood to travel cross border to any of the 172 nations that have signed on to CITES.  It may also be that because of the paperwork and headaches involved, they don't want or need to go there.

This is a huge problem for anyone with an older Martin or other fine instrument made with Brazilian rosewood.  The owner simply cannot legally travel cross border with it without first obtaining a CITES export permit from the exporting country, and a CITES import permit from the country it's going to....  and visa-versa on the way back.  Obtaining CITES import/export permits is tortuous at best.  There is a movement now to somehow ease the rules in the case of older instruments, but where do you draw the line, and how do you verify older vs. newer?  How can you prove that a new instrument made with old rosewood is not in fact a new instrument made with new rosewood?

Some countries, like Canada, have specific instances where importation of CITES items (rosewood, or ivory, etc) is permitted WITHOUT an import permit.  I did it once.  Specifically, you have to be ex-pat, and repatriating back to the Canada with your household items.  In this instance, where you've acquired the items as part of your household inventory as a non-resident of Canada and move back to Canada, Canada deems that the import of otherwise restricted items is allowed.  This is not the case if you are simply traveling or vacationing.  This was the case in 2005.  And it may only be Canada that allows this loophole for their ex-pats.  And it doesn't meant that it's legal to EXPORT the item without a CITES export permit from the country you're leaving.  It's bloody complex, but at least a Canadian can bring grandma's old piano back with them when they move...  the one with the ebony and ivory keys.

There are movements now to restrict rosewoods originating from other countries as they are becoming endangered as well.  It's a slippery slope and it's going to get more restrictive over time unless there's a lot more replanting. 

In case  it hasn't been mentioned before, the reason it's called rosewood is because it smells like roses when it's freshly cut.

cheers
Aerocaster







 
Are cites documents available (or copies of) from Warmoth on exotic stuff?  I don't know much about the cites documents, but being that it's wood and the finished product is void of serial numbers or any other demarkation, isn't fraud really easy?
 
The real bitch is that you really have no clue what woods could become regulated five, ten or twenty years from now. You could today build a guitar with for example a Pau Ferro fingerboard (even if you prefer the looks or feel of Brasilian RW), just to steer clear of all export regulation related issues, only to learn five years from now that PF has been added to the list and you can't travel with your guitar anymore. I guess the only 100% safe option is to avoid all woods that are sourced outside NA and Europe. That leaves Alder, Ash, Basswood, Maple, Poplar, Redwood, Spruce and Walnut. For bodies that does not impact choices so dramatically, except for Korina, but for necks the situation is a lot worse. Only Maple remains as a 'safe' fingerboard choice, and Wenge, Bubinga and Padouk would become 'unsafe' as choices for backs. If one or several of those species get onto the CITES list in addition to the ones alrady there, there would be a major impact on the musical instrument industry. You would probably see an enormous shift towards composites and synthetic materials.

 
Australia is a signed country to CITES and if ever you plan a trip to Australia, be careful if you plan to bring along an old guitar with valuable woods in it or ivory trimmings...Many other countries are the same. I guess an original purcahse order and invoice, pre dating CITES would be pretty conclusive so long as you can match up the serial numbers and prove there's been no added work done to the instrument with endangered woods or ivory since the CITES date AND do the papoerwork before you set off. In all it's a headache for those with valuable instruments, not just guitars but pianos, woodwinds, old ukeleles etc. Personally I have an old ivory encased compass that is reputed to have been purchased by my great gradfather on his journey to Australia via New Zealand in the late 1870s. It is probably made from Indian Elephant tusk, but I am not even contemplating taking it with me should I leave Australia as I run the risk of it being confiscated and /or being fined.

I guess if you are a professional musician and you must travel with an instrument made of listed woods, you would have to adhere to the paperwork and ensure you can take it into the counries you want to go to and get it back home. I suspect that Neil Young did that when he travelled to Australia in 2002 or 03, because he played a very old Martin (might have even been the Hank Williams guitar he owns) that surely must have had some Brazilian Rosewood in it for an acoustic number that sounded fantastic!

I have no issue with the reasoning behind this Treaty. Some species of wood and animals in particular needed the protection. It is up to the manufacturers of instruments to work out ways of bringing other materials up to the standard the customers demand. Our recording technology has improved immeasurably so that equalising and mixing a guitar made with lesser quality woods is possible to sound better than say even 30 yeasr ago, and it's only on a one to one basis that you notice the superiorirty of these old world woods against the modern alternatives. There is also nothing stopping a business or business group going into partnership with farms and organisations within countries that naturally grow these woods, and seek to re establish a harvestable sustainable crop & strictly applying the CITES requirements to all paperwork.
 
George Bush, when signing the treaty for protected endangered trees, inquired about what was being saved.  His aide told him "Brazillian rosewoods".  Bush replied "Brazillion rosewoods?  Thats a lot of trees!"


(forgive me Uncle George!)
 
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