Best way to get this finish:

[arjepsen]

Hey.

I'm planning on a swamp ash body with a canary top, and I'm thinking about giving it an oil finish of some kind.
I don't want a mirror-like finish!
Instead I would like to be able to see the grain on the canary, like on this picture:

http://www.zacharyguitars.com/280705pics.htm
(personally I don't like the headstock, or the body form, but I reeeally like the canary...  :binkybaby:  :binkybaby:  :binkybaby: )

So what's the best procedure to do that?

Regards.
Anders

 

[-CB-]

canary is a close grain wood.  swamp ash is very open

you'll have to do a bang up job of filling the swamp ash - filling, sanding, filling sanding...

Once you do that... even some Watco's would be great for that finish

 

[arjepsen]

canary is a close grain wood.  swamp ash is very open

you'll have to do a bang up job of filling the swamp ash - filling, sanding, filling sanding...

Once you do that... even some Watco's would be great for that finish

Thanks for the reply.  

But I was wondering if it was necessary to sand between coats of oil, in order to get this finish..
As mentioned, I don't want a mirror gloss finish, but more natural, like the images further down on the page I linked, where the pores/grain shows.
If sanding in still necessary, what grain would I have to use?

And.. sorry but I'm still not entirely sure what exactly Watco's is.... :sad1:
Is it "danish oil" you mean? And if so, what exactly is it?
(Actually I am danish... but I don't know what danish oil is.....  :tard:   )
If you tell me exactly what it is, it'll be easier for me to find

 

[-CB-]

once you get the wood pores filled in with filler, and sanded back flat again, you can apply the danish oil and come out with a finish similar to that one.  wood varies... but canary is rather smooth and fine grained, you probably will not need to fill it.  swamp ash... definately you'll need to fill it.

do you have to sand between coats... no.  once its filled, you'll only need a few coats to get that kind of finish

I'm not hugely a fan of danish oil - but it works ok on fine grain wood like canary

Danish oil varies with the manufacturer.  some is wax dissolved in mineral spirits, and some is a type of varnish.  watco's gets high marks.  the formby danish oil finish is very thin, more of the wax/spirits type, and I dunno... you might like that if you really dont want a build up and gloss.  what happens on that type of finish is the spirits dissolve the wax into the wood, and when the spirits dissolve, the wax remains, right into the pores of the wood.  its a hard wax and leaves a very smooth and soft finish, but grain fill that swamp ash, as there is no grain filling properties in any danish oil

also... be sure to use a sanding block on the faces of the body - so you dont get it all wavy

 

[arjepsen]

Again, thankyou so much. I'm learning a lot here

I hope you'll bear with me for a few more questions.

What i still don't fully understand, is; why the need to use "filler"?
I understand the need to fill the grain, if a completely smooth surface is the goal, but since i actually would like to be able to see the grain/pores, I wonder if it wouldn't be just as good, to just give it a good many layers of oil?
I realize it wouldn't fill the wood, but woldnt it still leave a durable hardened surface?

 

[-CB-]

filler is used to "fill in" the deep grain

in practice, you never really fill all the grain, but get a fairly smooth surface

you dont HAVE to fill the grain - oil away.  You'll have a very textured finish, it wont be smooth like the one you used

if you want a durable finish, look more in terms to 100 percent pure tung oil on grain filled wood - maybe 10 coats of that, with a light sanding after about 5 coats or so, and some fine steel wool after the final coat

 

[chrisg]

What i still don't fully understand, is; why the need to use "filler"?
I understand the need to fill the grain, if a completely smooth surface is the goal, but since i actually would like to be able to see the grain/pores, I wonder if it wouldn't be just as good, to just give it a good many layers of oil?
I realize it wouldn't fill the wood, but woldnt it still leave a durable hardened surface?

You don't need to use a grain filler if you follow this process:

• Prepare the wood by sanding with coarse (100 grit), medium (180 grit), and fine (240 grit) sandpaper. Make sure to wipe off all sawdust after sanding.
  
  Apply a generous amount (almost flood the surface) of Watco Danish Oil to the surface.
  
  Over the years I have found that it is better to use 320 grit silicon carbide wet or dry paper rather than 600 grit. The 320 grit paper will create the paste quickly and the paste will fill the pores better.
  
  Immediately after the Watco Danish Oil has been applied (while it is still wet on the surface) wrap a piece of 320 paper around a sanding block and start to wet sand with the grain. Continue to oil and wet sand until you feel enough of the paste has been worked down into the pores.
  
  There will still be a substantial amount of paste left on the surface. Don't wipe it off right away. Let the surface dry for about 10 minutes, and then wipe off the excess paste using a lint free rag. ipe against the grain, trying to cut the paste off at the surface, this way the paste in the pores will remain and not be pulled out. Let dry overnight.
  
  Before you continue, there may be a small amount of paste that is still on the surface. This needs to be removed, if not visible now, it will be when you apply additional coats. Because this has dried overnight, you will need to sand it off. Take another piece of 320 grit paper, wrap it around a block and DRY SAND lightly with the grain. You need only to take a few passes, just enough to remove any excess paste that has remained on the surface.
  
  I have also determined that in most cases wet sanding need only be done on the first application. Therefore, you need only wet sand once (in step 4). Now it is just a matter of applying additional coats of Watco (without wet sanding) until you achieve enough protection and the desired sheen. Usually I apply three to four additional coats after the first wet sanding coat. I let each coat dry overnight and very lightly scuff between coats with 0000 steel wool.
  
  After the last coat has been applied, I let the finish cure about 1 week and apply a coat of quality paste wax. That's it. Try it, I am sure you will be very happy with the results.

 

[arjepsen]

filler is used to "fill in" the deep grain

in practice, you never really fill all the grain, but get a fairly smooth surface

you dont HAVE to fill the grain - oil away.  You'll have a very textured finish, it wont be smooth like the one you used

if you want a durable finish, look more in terms to 100 percent pure tung oil on grain filled wood - maybe 10 coats of that, with a light sanding after about 5 coats or so, and some fine steel wool after the final coat

Hmm... I get a bit confused now...  :toothy11:
After reading up on finishes in here, I had gotten the impression, that filling the grain (with regular grain filler) were for making a completely smoothed out surface.
But if I understand you correctly, you suggest that I fill the grain, and that it would NOT give a completely smooth surface?

Another thing, after reading up on all the posts on the different finishes, it seems that tung oil give the best/easiest combination of durability/repairability.

Hmm.... maybe it's me that's not being specific enough.
If you go to the link I posted, and scroll down to the 3rd, 10th, 11th picture, you'll see the finish I wont to go for.
Looking at it closely, I guess it has been sanded. (but I'm a bit in the dark there, since I don't know how fine the body will be sanded from warmoth).
It does look like a relatively smooth surface, but the pores/grain still show, so my very uneducated guess was, that it hadn't been grain filled...

So... sorry for aksing this again, but looking at those specific pictures, what's the best way to get that finish?
Tung oil or danish oil?
No fill / some fill / complete fill?

 

[dudesweet157]

For the OP:

And, FWIW, this Zachary guy claims to do hand rubbed oil finishes on all his guitars.  Whether that means just wiping on some Tung Oil or using the French Polishing technique, I don't know.  He doesn't go into much detail, and his website is a nightmare to navigate.

 

[Mor Paul]

I'm saying no french polish. I'm not a fan of his site... too much talk, too many pictures, too much ego.

 

[Unwound G]

Did you noticed for the purpose of the headstock shape and straight string pull, the two E string tuners are arranged left to right ?  They may all tune in the same direction but changing strings can be confusing.

 

[-CB-]

Now that I see the sheen, I take it all back.

To me that looks like "as shot" gloss lacquer, not buffed out in any way.  Might be "satin" lacquer too... its hard to tell, as they vary considerably on blend.  I've had satin look glossy and glossy look satin "as shot".

Thats not an oil finish.

 

[chrisg]

Now that I see the sheen, I take it all back.

To me that looks like "as shot" gloss lacquer, not buffed out in any way.  Might be "satin" lacquer too... its hard to tell, as they vary considerably on blend.  I've had satin look glossy and glossy look satin "as shot".

Thats not an oil finish.

On his website he says the finish is a "combination of a hand rubbed oil resin and several layers of Carnuba based wax topcoat."  On some of the pictures you can see a more oil like finish with visible pores and a satin sheen.

 

[-CB-]

That looks a lot like the finish on my goncalo neck - from warmoth

 

[arjepsen]

I do agree, that his ego sounds too big, and the website is annoying to navigate.

I do like the contrast between the front canary and back maple on that guitar, but I don't want to have maple on mine.
Preferably I want to go with either alder or swamp ash, to stay with the "normal" strat body woods.
(Though I have been thinking that a mahogany back might fit well with the colors of the front...)

However, I'm getting more and more confused about how to do the finish with the canary top I'm planning.  :tard:

My thoughts so far was, that giving it tung oil, and sanding a bit between some layers, might give a finish like on the pictures, with visible pores.
But from the answers I get, it seems I'm wrong???

 

[DangerousR6]

What i still don't fully understand, is; why the need to use "filler"?
I understand the need to fill the grain, if a completely smooth surface is the goal, but since i actually would like to be able to see the grain/pores, I wonder if it wouldn't be just as good, to just give it a good many layers of oil?
I realize it wouldn't fill the wood, but woldnt it still leave a durable hardened surface?

You don't need to use a grain filler if you follow this process:

• Prepare the wood by sanding with coarse (100 grit), medium (180 grit), and fine (240 grit) sandpaper. Make sure to wipe off all sawdust after sanding.
  
  Apply a generous amount (almost flood the surface) of Watco Danish Oil to the surface.
  
  Over the years I have found that it is better to use 320 grit silicon carbide wet or dry paper rather than 600 grit. The 320 grit paper will create the paste quickly and the paste will fill the pores better.
  
  Immediately after the Watco Danish Oil has been applied (while it is still wet on the surface) wrap a piece of 320 paper around a sanding block and start to wet sand with the grain. Continue to oil and wet sand until you feel enough of the paste has been worked down into the pores.
  
  There will still be a substantial amount of paste left on the surface. Don't wipe it off right away. Let the surface dry for about 10 minutes, and then wipe off the excess paste using a lint free rag. ipe against the grain, trying to cut the paste off at the surface, this way the paste in the pores will remain and not be pulled out. Let dry overnight.
  
  Before you continue, there may be a small amount of paste that is still on the surface. This needs to be removed, if not visible now, it will be when you apply additional coats. Because this has dried overnight, you will need to sand it off. Take another piece of 320 grit paper, wrap it around a block and DRY SAND lightly with the grain. You need only to take a few passes, just enough to remove any excess paste that has remained on the surface.
  
  I have also determined that in most cases wet sanding need only be done on the first application. Therefore, you need only wet sand once (in step 4). Now it is just a matter of applying additional coats of Watco (without wet sanding) until you achieve enough protection and the desired sheen. Usually I apply three to four additional coats after the first wet sanding coat. I let each coat dry overnight and very lightly scuff between coats with 0000 steel wool.
  
  After the last coat has been applied, I let the finish cure about 1 week and apply a coat of quality paste wax. That's it. Try it, I am sure you will be very happy with the results.

I've used this method a couple of times. Once on walnut and once on mahogany, both turned out glass smooth. But instead of steel wool in the final step, I used a fine sanding sponge.... :icon_biggrin:

 

[Crazy Dave]

Thats not an oil finish.

It is. I own three Zacharies, they are all oil and wax finished. I got one of my guitars secondhand, and it's former owner screwed up the finish by cleaning it with a lemon oil cleanser. Said "REMOVES WAX" in big letters on the bottle too... :doh: Anyway, it's fixed now.  :glasses10:

Not sure what oil he uses, but there is carnauba wax in the wax finish. It feels really smooth.