Best chance of success with finishing

[Michaelga]

I am inexperienced when it comes to finishing guitars. I have 3 bodies that I would like to finish. One is mainly for practice. It is a Standard 5 poplar body that I have dyed black that I simply want to apply a clear coat to. This is practice for bass # 2, a standard 5 swamp ash body dyed blue and sealed with dewaxed Zinser spray shellac. The third body is an Carvin alder body that I experimented on with dye, but I'm not satisfied with the results. I want to paint it with a solid color. I purchased a bunch of 2k auto finish, thinking that it would be a good material to work with. Cagey has said it it's a lot more difficult and dangerous to use, so I'm not going to risk it. What is the simplest, safest way to finish a body without expensive gear beyond spray paint or simple wipe on products? The internet is full of information, but it is overwhelming to me to understand what is the simplest way to proceed. If I knew someone with experience with finishing, I think I would just pay the money and get a professional finish. Any suggestions?

Michael

 

[Cagey]

If you don't want to spray or wipe it on and aren't interested in equipment or long/involved processes, I would suggest you have the work done. Those are really your 3 choices. I would highly recommend you get in touch with Tonar8353. He's done finishes for numerous people on this forum and I'm sure for others as well. Professional results, reasonably priced. I've seen/handled a couple pieces he's done and can vouch for the quality. He's a nitro guy, which returns some fantastic finishes that are instrument-worthy.

 

[Michaelga]

I'm fine with spray painting from a can or wipe-on, I just don't want to invest in a compressor and a gun. I did try wiping on the poplar body over the winter with Tru-oil, which never dried and then wipe on poly, which also never dried. I think it was too cool and damp to get the stuff to work properly (I live in Georgia). It is hot, but the humidity is always high in the summer time. This is why I was so interested in the 2K products, since they rely on a chemical reaction to harden.

Michael

 

[Cagey]

You're sort of in the position I was some years back. I had the equipment and experience to do that sort of work back when I was much younger, but had sold it all off. I didn't want to get back into it just for instruments, because I didn't think I'd need it for anything else and never intended to offer it as a service, which is the best way to pay for that sort of thing.

But, I had several bodies that needed finish, so what's a mother to do? Radical rationalization/justification. That always works  :laughing7:

I figured I was looking at $300-$400 each to get these things finished, which isn't a bad way to go. Got a problem? Throw money at it. It's fast/easy/good and with proper vetting of your contractor you generally get what you want. But, 3 bodies meant $900-$1200. Damn, that's a lotta beer. Even if I bought the equipment, finished those bodies, then put the spray rig out for pickup on trash day, it had to cost less than that.

A bit of research returned this little lovely...

It's an Earlex 5500 HVLP spray rig, and you can get them for roughly $300 if you shop around. Needs a smaller needle valve for the gun, which you can buy separately, but otherwise, that's the whole thing. Small, lightweight, inexpensive, nowhere near as messy as regular paint rigs, easy to clean... what's not to love? And here's an example of one of the bodies I shot with it...

Of course, there was a lot more to it than just that spray rig, but the point is, you don't have to go insane on gear to get good results.

 

[Michaelga]

I am curious what can be accomplished with spray cans and/or wipe-on finishes. Are my chance of making a halfway decent finish that much higher purchasing a $300 spray station vs. (for example) Reranch spray cans that would cost roughly $50 per body?

Michael

 

[Cagey]

Depends what you mean by "halfway decent". I've never seen a spray can finish that wasn't obvious at first glance, but that may have been due to technique. I know some folks have had good results with Reranch products, and it seems unlikely they'd be able to maintain a viable business were that not possible, so there's that. I'm a bit of a nit-picking control freak, so I look at canned finishes the way a chef might look at canned vegetables. Maybe somebody else who's done the spray can thing will chime in here and help out.

 

[Cagey]

When I speak of "technique", I'm referring to how much work there is getting a finish to look good. Shooting it is only part of the battle. Ultimate success is heavily dependent on a great deal of labor, little of which is the actual finish application. You might want to read this article on lacquer finishing. It'll give you some idea of what's involved in getting a good finish.

 

[timezon3]

I've done a couple spray can finishes.  It can be done and come out reasonably well.  It is, as Cagey says, highly dependent on labor that is not necessarily part of applying the finish, but IMO that's true for pretty much any finish.  (I guess maybe not the 2k stuff he described as being self-levelling and self-polishing?)  Anyways.  My none more purple guitar is water-based dye (wiped on), followed by Deft sanding sealer, followed by Deft clear lacquer (both rattle cans).  I would guess that Cagey will say that this is obvious to his eye as a rattle can finish, and I'm ok with that.    It still looks pretty good IMO.  (and keep in mind, the pictures in that thread are many years after the body was finished, so yeah, it's banged up a little bit.)

I've also done an opaque finish super-cheap with krylon rattle cans.  I think this can also look fine.  As long as you do it right, meaning lots of sanding: sanding before spraying anything, sanding after primer, sanding after color, and sanding and buffing after clear.  Unfortunately, I don't have any pictures of this one, and I no longer have the guitar.  Does it look as good as Cagey's green guitar pictured?  Nope.  Cagey's also been around the block a few times.  I imagine my first attempt with an HVLP wouldn't look like his.

It's always worth getting some scrap wood and playing with it.  Dye it, stain it, wipe on some polyurethane, see what it looks like.  Maybe try it with the rattle can sealer & lacquer.  Try some krylon stuff.  Of course, doing these experiments isn't cheap either!

I will also say what I've said before.  The reason for doing your own finish is because you enjoy it and/or want to say that you did it.  Saving money is not a great reason to try to do your own finish.  If this isn't a process you're going to enjoy, just pay someone else to do it.  Prior to finishing a couple project guitars, I had bought a couple pieces of unfinished furniture and stained / polyurethaned them (all wipe-on), and enjoyed the process and results, so figured a guitar would be within reach too.

TZ

 

[Michaelga]

I think I would enjoy it if I was working with someone who knew what they were doing and could guide and help me through the process. What I've done on my own has stressed me out because things haven't worked and I didn't know how to proceed. The poplar body has gone through several trials of application, things didn't go well so I had to stop and sand it down and start all over again. I'm either going to pay someone to finish it, or sell everything and move on.

 

[bagman67]

I'm with Cagey as to the vast majority of rattle-can finishes applied by amateurs  - they generally lack the professional level of prep work required at the front end, and typically don't get the professional level of wet-sanding and buffing at the back end - and spray application from rattle-cans is fraught with peril in the middle.  And it shows. So yeah, it can be tough.  Many folks will chalk this up to lack of proper equipment, but those folks also probably blame their guitar or their amp when they play like crap.  David Gilmour sounds like himself with 200 dollars worth of pedals and any random Strat.  Tonar can take a passel of rattle cans and produce a masterpiece of finishing.  It's all about putting in the time and going slow enough to get the results you want.


There are zero shortcuts in prep work - either you did it perfectly, or you did it wrong, and the "wrong" part will not necessarily be apparent until you have color applied.  Be anal-retentive in your sanding and sealing and priming. Make sure you have access to lots of light for spotting imperfections. Take the workpiece outside in the sun as necessary.  If you screw something up, walk away and let it be while your temper cools.  Don't try to fix anything while you're pissed off at it.  Also, If you wear glasses to read, you need them for sanding, or at least for inspecting your work. 


If you are truly brain-surgeon meticulous with your prep work, and you don't over-apply the 2k finishes causing runs or orange-peel, you should wind up with that glossy-as-glass look.  But a first-time finish is unlikely to be perfect no matter how diligent you are, because experience is largely about making mistakes, and then learning (a) how to clean up after yourself when you make the inevitable mistake, and (b) learning how not to make that particular mistake again.  So you have to make the mistakes to get the experience, which means you have to turn in some imperfect work to get to where you can turn in perfect work.  We're back at David Gilmour again here, see?


I'm here to tell you, I have a few finish jobs under my belt, and I'm getting better at them - but they are all pretty imperfect so far. It is the experience of having built the guitars myself and made and (hopefully) learned from the concomitant errors that makes these instruments special to me.  But your mileage may vary.


Listen:  Achieving a fine finish on wood is hard.  Working toward competence in that art, however slowly, can be rewarding for some.  For others, it can be an endless slog through tedium toward a goal that can never truly be realized.  For the former camp, the accumulated mistakes are just evidence of the struggle toward mastery, or something that may one day resemble it.  For the latter, for goodness sake, if you know finishing is not your bag, pay someone else and get one with the joy of PLAYING the damn thing.  Life is short. You should do what you like doing as much as possible, and avoid doing what you don't like doing as much as possible.  The choice is yours.

 

[Michaelga]

Hi Bagman,

Your post has helped me make up my mind. I got into this because I thought I would enjoy building my own bass guitar. I enjoy the rest of the process because I've got a fair amount of technical knowledge and experience that helps me build and wire the bass, but I have know finishing knowledge or experience. I am procrastinating putting these together because I am not comfortable with finishing and I want the final product to look good. I'm going to leave finishing to someone else, or sell everything and just buy a new bass. Thank you all for your feedback!

Michael

 

[aarontunes]

Wise choice, IMO.


Finishing is the black magic of guitar building, AFAIC.


Why dabble in it when hiring a wizard is so cheap?

 

[bagman67]

Hi Bagman,

Your post has helped me make up my mind. I got into this because I thought I would enjoy building my own bass guitar. I enjoy the rest of the process because I've got a fair amount of technical knowledge and experience that helps me build and wire the bass, but I have know finishing knowledge or experience. I am procrastinating putting these together because I am not comfortable with finishing and I want the final product to look good. I'm going to leave finishing to someone else, or sell everything and just buy a new bass. Thank you all for your feedback!

Michael

Thanks, Michael.  Every once in a while I commit one of these screeds to the void with no real hope of it "landing."  It's gratifying to know I've helped someone find their way toward what they want to do.  I am eager to see what you achieve here.


Best rgds.,


Ian

 

[Cagey]

It's the undying hope of reciprocal altruism  :laughing7:

 

[Michaelga]

I found a local guitar builder who I just spoke to. I am getting 2 bodies finished there. Hopefully I will have a bass built from one of them within the next month!

Michael

 

[Michaelga]

I had a local guitar shop paint my bass guitar. It looks great, but I made a mistake when putting the neck in. The joint was too tight because of some paint overlap, so I sanded the pocket and put the neck in. As you can see, I didn't sand it enough and there is some chipping and discoloration. Is there a way to fix this? I believe he used nitrocellulose, but I need to double-check to make sure.

Michael

 

[BigSteve22]

Why dabble in it when hiring a wizard is so cheap?

Words to live by....  :icon_thumright: