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Being a builder

That's a good point, too. But, I'm not so sure there are as many "luthiers" out there as are claimed. It's true we're basically just bolting/wiring these things together, so anybody doing that and calling themselves a luthier is kinda like somebody with a lego set calling themselves an engineer or an architect. But, I don't think I've seen anyone here call themselves a luthier at all, even though some might actually deserve the title. After all, a luthier is simply defined as "somebody who builds stringed instruments, such as violins".

To me, an honest-to-god luthier is someone who can cut down a tree a make an acoustic guitar. But, that's an overly demanding standard that even most luthiers would say is unrealistic <grin>
 
Cagey. You beat me to it.  In my book, anyone building solidbody electric guitars, from scratch or parts, does not make them a luthier.

A REAL luthier builds accustic guitars, I disagree with someones definition of a luthier being anyone who builds stringed instruments

That's like saying anyone who does electrical work is an electrician,  Or anyone who cooks toast is a chef

Anyone with the right tools and some patience can build a solidbody guitar, A luthier can build a fine accustic guitar with a swiss army knife.
 
Well, I'm not very patience today and there are some seriously long posts... Wanna be a luthier? Start reading "How to build your own electric guitar" by Melvin Hiscock...


Some jerks say a hand-build or custom build guitar is nothing compared to Fender or Gibson? Well, it's their problem... everybody has the right to choose what is better to then...
 
as one who does a significant amount of solidbody 'scratch' work ... you won't see me tagging myself as a luthier. IMO there are masses of tradesmen and weekend warriors, and then there are those rare and brilliant artisan craftsmen (who would never apply the title to themselves) whos work leaves you in awe of its masterful attention to even the minutest of details


I'll also note that just because you start with a solid foundation (neck and body from W or similar), it's no guarantee of an exceptional end result. all you need to do is take a brief peek at eBay to see just how wrong someone can transform a perfectly good neck and body when combining it with ignorance and a lack of patience

all the best,

R
 
Quote "He said that once our guitars were done they weren't worth half of what we payed to build them."

He is right.... we all know that once that body and neck leave the factory there dollar value drops by 1/2.   Having said that, I know plenty of people who buy exotic necks to replace the normal necks on there high end guitars and the resale value rises as long as they save the original neck, and sometimes when they don't .

you should also remember that warmoth has ghost built necks and body for many a guitar co. I am not sure but I believe my robin tedley (1990) has a warmoth neck.
P1010006.jpg



oops sorry meant to post this in the ugly guitar poast... :laughing11:
 
As a Roberto-Venn grad and a certified Luthier and not taking anything away from the skill level of the people here, but my only complaint is people throwing around the term "building" loosely.  The only people who build a Warmoth guitar are the ones who work at the factory and craft the necks and bodies.  Anyone who buys them and puts them together is "assembling" a guitar, not building it. 

What is everyone's thoughts on that?
 
Jackson56 said:
What is everyone's thoughts on that?
I don't care  :icon_jokercolor:

My warmoth wasn't a kit, it was a lot of parts I chose, sure, I put it together, but there is more than that. I designed it, I put it together. I don't claim I built the body, but I did build the guitar. If I built a car out of parts I bought, I'd still say I built it.
 
Jackson56 said:
What is everyone's thoughts on that?

We've chatted about it in the beggining of this new version of the forum and the point we got is: people talk like this, we know it's wrong and we don't build sh!t, but... I don't see any problem as others and I've made a luthier curse, build guitars, etc... Specially why people say that get the neck from Warmoth, nobody says that made by themselves
 
Well I do prefer to finish them myself. I definately feel that adds to the mojo. I do not like the idea of assembling pre-finished parts. To me that is kind of taking away all the DIYness out of it. There's no soul of the owner/creator that way. I know that I can't touch a Warmoth finish but I guess it comes down to your goals and what it takes to acomplish them. If you are looking for the best quality finished product you can have or the best quality product you can finish is what you need to decide and persue.
 
I want a high quality, customized guitar. I go to warmoth.

Am I building? No. Am I a luthier? No.

It's like talking to a pipe-fitter, or a metal fabricator. If you were to ask if they were a plumber/welder, the would RIGHTFULLY get upset, because they worked much harder to learn what they do, and they dislike being associated with somebody who does a VERY simplified version of their job.

To associate Warmoth builds and luthier's is ridiculous. Do some luthiers use Warmoth parts at times? I'm sure some do occasionally.

 
It's fun, but I like eating too much to do it for a living. And of course anyone trying to make a living at it has to differentiate himself somehow from anyone else who can slap parts together. Even if its just by badmouthing others.
 
See number 3 below (from http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/semantics):

semantics - 7 dictionary results
se·man·tics   [si-man-tiks]  Show IPA
–noun ( used with a singular verb )
1. Linguistics .
a. the study of meaning.
b. the study of linguistic development by classifying and examining changes in meaning and form.

2. Also called significs. the branch of semiotics dealing with the relations between signs and what they denote.

3. the meaning, or an interpretation of the meaning, of a word, sign, sentence, etc.: Let's not argue about semantics.

4. general semantics.
 
Jackson56 said:
As a Roberto-Venn grad and a certified Luthier and not taking anything away from the skill level of the people here, but my only complaint is people throwing around the term "building" loosely.  The only people who build a Warmoth guitar are the ones who work at the factory and craft the necks and bodies.  Anyone who buys them and puts them together is "assembling" a guitar, not building it.  

What is everyone's thoughts on that?

I understand your frustration and sense of disenfranchisement. But, some fields are just that way and there's little you can do about it. Proper credit will only come from those who know where credit is due, and that knowledge is often esoteric so credit is rarely given. For instance, an honest-to-god computer programmer is capable of designing and implementing code on a machine code or assembly language level or slightly higher. The higher the level gets, the easier it gets until even children can do it. To hear script writers, HTML authors, spreadsheet arrangers, and database managers describe themselves as programmers really rankles hardcore programmers because those people are simply using what programmers create. To call those people "programmers" diminishes what actual programmers and computer scientists do.

The medical and legal professions don't tolerate that kind of thing. You're either a doctor or a lawyer or you're not, end of discussion. There's no confusion.

It's like calling garbagemen "sanitation engineers". What? What exactly are they engineering? Most of the guys who do that work can barely sign their own name or read the daily paper, let alone design something.

But, sometimes there are grey areas. Somebody can build a house without designing it or fabricating the various components involved. Some might even say they were their own architect because they picked various features, and it's possible they were, but that would be generally be a gross exaggeration. In fact, in many cases, they didn't even do any building at all, let alone any design or fab.

With guitars, at least when using pre-fabricated parts, I don't see any problem with calling those who put them together "builders". The line between "builder" and "assembler" is pretty nebulous. Did I build that small-block Chevy engine, or did I assemble it? I submit there's little or no difference. In either case, one is putting together pre-designed pre-fabricated parts to create a whole. In no way did the assembler/builder design it. One might make different decisions about which parts to use, but whether or not those parts are appropriate for any given task has already been determined by the engineers who designed the whole as well as the parts. Whether or not they'll work in concert remains to be seen, but that's largely determined by whether or not the builders/assemblers properly used the parts the designers came up with.

Luthiers are the practical engineers of the stringed instrument world. They know what works and what doesn't and why. They can produce guitars from toadshite and wax paper because they understand all the underlying principles and the characteristics of the instrument and the materials they're traditionally made of. But, lest your ego get too outsized, it's still essentially a "skilled trade". Luthiers aren't mechanical engineers, they're still essentially technicians; just more educated than builders.
 
Assembly is part of what goes on, most of it I guess.

I don't know, I'm just finishing an "assembly" and I've done the finishing work myself, carved the nut by hand out of bone, done all the (easy) electrical work including design my own (elementary) circuit, next is setting up the guitar to my own personal feel, which usually takes a few days and several tweaks as I play it. I also envisioned exactly how I want the thing to look feel and play and chose parts that would get me there.
Sure I didn't really "build" it, but I did something more than "assembly." To me that terms implies following a set of instructions, which doesn't really describe the process at all.
 
I am currently in the middle of my first build from scratch, which I chose to do over a Warmoth because it came out cheaper and I had the resources, yet I would still love to do a Warmoth build and have the upmost respect for all of you Warmoth builders out there, because you all start with relatively the same basic Warmoth parts and all manage to make them your own great, unique guitars.
 
Bob Benedeto says there are two parts to building a guitar  1st  you build it as a fine peice of woodwork
                                                                                      2nd  you turn that fine piece of woodwork into an instrument,  ie...it's not an instrument until you do a complete and competant setup


Bob is highly regarded by many as the worlds premier builder of archtop guitars, I happen to agree
 
reinhold said:
I am currently in the middle of my first build from scratch, which I chose to do over a Warmoth because it came out cheaper and I had the resources, yet I would still love to do a Warmoth build and have the upmost respect for all of you Warmoth builders out there, because you all start with relatively the same basic Warmoth parts and all manage to make them your own great, unique guitars.

I haven't found Warmoth builds to be particularly inexpensive, or I'd be building a lot more of them. But, relative to what you'd get from a "traditional" OEM for similar quality they're a bargain, often exceeding by a generous margin what you could get from an OEM even at three to five times the price. The downside is there's no "cachet" to a Warmoth outside an enlightened minority. That is, Jimi Hendrix never played a Warmoth, nor did Eric Clapton, or any number of other heros who make some guitars look like mysterious and magical talismans that open the portal to fame and fortune.
 
Any Warmoth guitar is part assembly and part building. Warmoth cuts out a couple quality components and maybe paints them, that's it. They don't design the overall instrument the customer wants for one thing, nor do they configure the equipment, install it, and so on. We could extend that whole rationale to whether or not Apple actually builds computers, or whether Ford builds cars, whatever. drewfx is spot on, it's semantics. Granted, you may not qualify as a craftsman, but then there are folks that out of luthiery school that will never be good craftsmen either.

If someone else wants to look down their nose at the Warmoth crowd and compare them to sweatshop kids, that's fine. However I'd remind them that this isn't the 18th Century; like it or not, you can get a nice instrument without commissioning a professional luthier to hand-build your guitar. Warmoth is what it is - manufactured parts, nothing more or less. I use them because the prices are reasonable, there are tons of options, and the products are consistent from one part to the next.




 
Jackson56 said:
What is everyone's thoughts on that?

It's been covered to death.  We are not builders for the most part, but we call them "builds."  I can't take any of mine anywhere w/out a converstion iniated by a stranger.  "So you built it," often is uttered to which I reply, "I ordered the finished parts and assembled them."  The guitar I had fine tuned, but the basses were set up by me.

The often misused terms like luthier when someone means tech, and build when we mean assemble aren't mutually exclusive to the custom guitar parts world either.  My wife is an interior designer.  She has a 4 year degree in that field, after college had to pass a test for a license, has to maintain that license with continuing ed., and is infuriated when the hobbyist that has an eye for picking out curtains calls themself a designer when they mean decorator.  Same with me.  I'm a journeyman electrician.  I went through a 5 year apprenticeship that consisted of classroom time and on the job training, have a state license, maintain that license with continuing ed, and feel a little diminished when someone calls themself an electrician because they take care of their uncle's rent houses.
 
I'm a licensed Electrician too LU-48,  And I feel the same thing when someone calls themselves an electrician because they change lightbulbs in some factory somewhere.

My license covers everything from doorbells to nuclear plants.  Where you at Super T?
 
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