Bass VI Stumper

[iamdavidmorris]

Here it is.  Don't hate.  I know this is a bit of a science experiment.  I'm building a Fender Bass VI-style bass, strung EADGBE, an octave below a standard guitar, but don't want that type of pickup.  I want something more like a humbucker or Musicman kind of sound, but something that can handle the extended upper range.  I will be blending this pickup with a piezo as well.  Given how well my wife's Squier Bronco bass sounds with a GFS Lil Killer, which is really a guitar pickup, I'm tempted to just drop a humbucker in there.  But I'm worried I won't get enough low range out of something like that.  I'm thinking the right preamp will be critical, and I'll probably have to build that, unless anyone has an suggestion.

Tough one, huh?  Any ideas?  (Other than to recant my blasphemy or suffer the consequences, I mean...)

:icon_scratch:

 

[pabloman]

I think a JB/Jazz/piezo setup would be very versatile.  :headbang1:

 

[pabloman]

A DG 20 setup with piezo would be pretty kicks too and still retain the OG look somewhat.

 

[rockskate4x]

bareknuckle makes a number of pickups that are excellent for maintaining clarity with drop tunings and extended range instruments. http://www.bareknucklepickups.co.uk/main/

 

[iamdavidmorris]

The problem with most bass pickups is the pole placement.  From what I understand, EMGs and Barts use bar magnets, which solve that problem.  Maybe I could boost the high end with EQ.  I don't know if that would work or not.  Bare Knuckle looks like they might have some workable options, as does Lace.  Any other thoughts?

I should note that the body will be my own shape, so there's no need to worry about OG looks.  Thanks for the support, guys.

 

[Patrick from Davis]

I thought that the Rickenbackers used to use the guitar pickups in them, the toaster styled ones.  There are the monster sized things, but if you look up a 4005 I believe that it is just guitar pickups on a bass.  I have not heard anything that states that they'd be bad.  I imagine that you just need to get low output pickups because of the amount of signal a bass string will produce in a guitar pickup...  I guess it does only have 4 pole pieces.  Maybe blade pickups would be a better idea.
Patrick

 

[iamdavidmorris]

After sending out a few emails to pickup manufacturers, I got a couple of replies today.  In case anybody's interested:

Hmm…

I would try going with a ceramic magnet guitar humbucker.  Go with the Custom 5.  It will give you classic tones but will hold up to the low tuning’s you’re using.

Best,

(Name Removed)
Sales / Customer Service
Seymour Duncan
5427 Hollister Ave, Santa Barbara, CA 93111-2345
805-964-9610 x 1028
www.seymourduncan.com

Hi,
I would try one of our Dream 180 pickups.  They tend to be one of our better pickups for an overall range.

(Name Removed)
Guitarfetish.com Tech Support

Neither of these replies surprised me.  I'd wondered in particular about those Dream 180s.  They seem like they could be a pretty decent solution.

 

[iamdavidmorris]

Predictably, a very metal response from DiMarzio:

Although it may appear irrational, a D Activator-X neck model (DP221) might be good. It has bar polepieces, so string spacing isn't an issue (see attached diagram), and the sound is pretty well balanced from top to bottom. It's not very loud, but that will better reproduce the overall sound. The D Activator-X bridge model (DP222) might be good if you want a pickup that's loud enough to hurt people >

 

[iamdavidmorris]

This one looks promising...

Hello David, and thank you for your email.  My first thought is the Bass Bar pickups….but that depends on the pickup route you have or will have in your bass.  The Bass bar pups are a unique animal, as the have such a wide response.  We have a lot of Steel Guitar players as well as 7, 8 and 9 string guitarist using them in their axes.  That is due to the fact the BB pups, have a nice tight bottom end, even mids, and smooth highs.  As a bass pickup, it is big and full, with an slight piano like tone in the low end.  You might find that the PreAmp is not necessary with the Bass Bar pups.  If you have any questions, please contact me again.

Thanks,


(Name Removed)
Customer Service/Tech Support
Lace Music Products
Telephone:  800-575-LACE (5223) Ext. 107
Fax: 714-893-1045
www.LaceMusic.com
Visit us on Facebook
YouTube Channel

 

[andythewitt]

I think it's great that you're doing a bit of a science experiment, partly because I built a Bass VI out of Warmoth parts last February and had a similar mindset. I appreciate the feedback from the various customer service reps. I don't see myself changing pickups anytime soon but it will be good reference if I ever do tweak my setup. I think that if you really don't want to compromise the low end at all, something like the Bass Bar makes sense. I use mine as a bass in a power trio, but I was willing to accept a little bit thinner sound because I use this as a bit of a changeup from a P-bass. I think my Bass VI can still get a deep sound and be used for "normal" bass lines even though it's tuned D-D, it will just never be as round and fat as my P-bass. I definitely think that you at least need some type of pickup in the neck position for this to be useful as a bass.

Before you settle on a wiring and switch configuration, I'd suggest that you wait until you have the body first. It's possible that Warmoth has since tweaked their cavity routing, but I originally intended to use a Strat style 5 way switch only to find that I couldn't fit it anywhere. Your mileage may vary. I decided not to try to do any routing initially and throw something together with what I had on hand. I ended up with a fairly goofy setup involving two push/pull pots and nothing else. I wouldn't do it again and want to change it eventually, but I'm not too upset about it.

I took the approach of using strat style single coils at the neck and mid position thinking that I might lose a little bit of low end but that I'd get kind of a nice jangly top end. I have a full size humbucker at the bridge for a little extra crunch. For the most this worked out, though I don't find myself using the bridge pickup that much in my band. The setting that I use the most is the neck and mid picks together in series, in phase. This leads me to think that a neck humbucker might have been a good option. One way of thinking that I ran into while researching forums about Bass VI pickups is that a lot of people think that you'll lose any sort of clarity if your pickup output is too hot. At some level this is certainly true, but my series combination of pickups is pretty rude and loud and I've rarely thought it was too muddy. I'd say don't be afraid of something because it has a higher output than what is traditionally used in this sort of instrument.

As long as I'm on this soapbox, I'll throw in a little about strings. I don't know what sort of piezo bridge you plan on using, so if you don't have a split jazzmaster style tailpiece your experiences might be totally different because you won't need as much string length. I haven't tried flats on my Bass VI and I'm sure it would be a lot of fun, but that's not the sound I'm going for at the moment. For roundwounds, I've tried D'Addario, GHS, Musicman, and La Bella. The one other major outfit selling Bass VI strings that I can think of is Fender, but I haven't tried them. I tried the D'Addario_XL156 first because I typically like their strings, I knew they would fit the nut, and they were cheap. I thought that the two lowest strings were really weak sounding. The set that I got from GHS, CU-F6DYB,  didn't fit at all; the outer wrap stopped well short of the nut. They might be fine if you have a stop tail bridge. I next tried the Musicman set intended for the Silhouette bass (2837) and found them to have much better low end than the D'Addario. These were OK, but the sound was still a little thin and the low string outer wrap ended slightly before the nut (though not as bad as the GHS set). The La Bella 767-6S pretty much get the sound I'm looking for though they are expensive and are a little large for the nut as supplied by Warmoth. My lowest string would pop out the nut every once in awhile, but I play with a heavy touch and it still never became a huge problem. My Bass VI is in the shop right now for a setup and I'm having the nut filed for the La Bella set.

 

[iamdavidmorris]

Thanks so much for that input, Andy.  I'm glad to know I'm not the only mad scientist that's into VI's.  Truthfully, my body isn't even a Warmoth build, nor is it much like a traditional Bass VI.  It's my own design and construction - basically a hybrid electric acoustic with a hollow body and a braced soundboard.  The piezo will be mounted directly to the bridge plate (probably).  The neck will probably be my own construction too.  I've brought this same quandary to several luthiers' forums and no one really had any ideas.  It doesn't surprise me at all that the UW forums were housing the experts on this subject.  And even though this isn't really a Warmoth build, I figure the information I gather is helpful to others that want to play around with Warmoth Bass VI's. 

I've been thinking about using the GFS Dream 180, which is a pretty bassy pickup in the "sweet spot."  That will blend with the piezo.  But if what you're saying is right, the warmer neck position might be a better spot for that Dream 180.  It sort of makes sense to do that, especially because I can always bring in more highs with the piezo.  I'm also planning on stealthing a really hot Tele bridge pickup under the soundboard for something closer to a signature "big western"/Hank the Knife kind of Bass VI sound.

I also have an E-E 35" scale science experiment bass that's my main player.  I've been using custom sets of D'Addario strings, and they're ok.  People don't realize what a big issue strings are with these instruments.  If I could only get DR to start manufacturing Zebras for bass, I'd be a happy man, but I think I'd be one of the few people in the world that would actually want them.

***********************************************

For my final report, I got a response from Bare Knuckle pickups yesterday.  That is such a great company, and their response just adds to my respect for them.  I shouldn't post their exact response, because it violates the legal disclaimer attached to their emails, but I'll paraphrase:

First response, just hours after my initial inquiry:

I hope you don't mind, but I'd like to forward this to my supervisor for his advice.  He will be back in the office next week.

Thank you.

And then, early yesterday morning:

It doesn't sound like anything we make will meet your specific needs.  Thank you for your inquiry.

(Managing Director of Bare Knuckle Pickups)

Isn't that classy?  Rather than try to sell me something, they tried to point me away from the wrong product.  I'm very impressed with them.

 

[reluctant-builder]

Hey, Andy, could you post some pics of your Bass VI? I'd love to see it.

Thanks.

 

[AprioriMark]

My Bass VI has 2 Roadhouse True Blue P90s, nd I've tried a few humbuckers, including Gibson 57 classics, an Air Norton and a Duncan JB.  The p90s are perfect for a Bass VI.  They're clear without being annoying, punchy, dynamic... honestly, I don't think I'd use anything else.  I just accompanied myself on the VI at a memorial service playing a couple Tom Waits songs (Johnsburg, IL and Take it With Me), Wonderful World and a few others.  It's an amazing instrument, and the P90s are the cat's tits.

-Mark

 

[andythewitt]

Please excuse the mess; these were taken in a bachelor pad that I've since graduated from Unfortunately that Blackface Champ was my old roommate's so I don't get to see it as much.

Neck is wenge with a pao ferro board. Body is swamp ash. I have a Mastery Bridge on there but I'm not sure if it's in all the pictures. It isn't quite long enough to perfectly intonate the lowest string but I don't think any other widely available bridges are either. I don't feel that it's an issue. The mastery bridge was a huge upgrade over the first jazzmaster style bridge that I bought.  I never use that tremolo.

The single coils are WCR and the bridge is a WCR Icebucker. I need to dig back into the wiring someday to see if I can get more use out of the humbucker, but I wonder if I'd be better off putting it into a guitar. A P90 might be nice by the sound of things in this thread. I'm pretty happy with the single coils.

This weekend I just saw some Squiers with Jag/Jazz style bodies and the same color scheme. I was kind of pissed that there are now cheap instruments that look like mine from a distance.

 

[andythewitt]

Requisite action shot:

 

[iamdavidmorris]

Pretty.  That neck is especially gorgeous.  I'm curious about your comments on the bridge.  Is that consensus?  I've been debating as to whether or not I want to integrate a modified TOM into my bridge/tailpiece configuration, or just use a regular acoustic saddle.  It sounds like a regular bone saddle might be the way to go then, huh?  Do you perhaps have a close-up of the bridge (post set-up)?