Are boutique pickps really different than others?

[llama]

I tried some Vintage Vibe hand wound pickups - they are very good - and cheaper (in the UK) than Seymour Duncans.

 

[ldelo]

people who think they are smart because they have an education realy piss me off!!!

the fact is that the experts have tested it and found that it does reduce capacitence. not that that really matters much when a guitar cable has more than any pickup out there, never mind the cap in the tone control. but there is a diference, small and incremental but still a diference. and if you make enough incremental changes to something you'll eventually notice it.

theories are great but unless you can sit there with the proper test equipment and prove that there isn't a diference you can't say it doesn't hold water. if you don't like the explaination i chalenge you to find a better one.

seymour duncan test all sorts of things to find what effects the sound of a pickup. inductence, capacitence, Q, dc resistence, magnetic properties that i know little about, even the dielectric properties of diferent bobin materials. if he says it reduces capacitence i'll beleive the guy with the test equipment and years of research. he knows of Q and of inductence but has determined that the capacitence makes the diference in a scatter wound pickup.

and now to actually trump you, a hb has a good 8.5k dc resistence correct? if you place an 8.5k resistor across a 150 pico farrad capacitor (typical winding capacitence as it does exist and if it exists it can be changed) does it not now have capacitence?
now they aren't isolated they're conected right? so what's the diference?
remember the capacitence isn't necicerily only to an ajacent wire on the same layer with only an ohm or so between them. it can be between layers with 100 ohmsbetween them, it can be from the start layer to the finish layer with a few thousand ohms between.

Dimitri -

I don't really care if you're upset, though some of you clearly have pet theories of your own that are so sacrosanct to you that you bristle at and attack anyone daring to have a contrary opinion...

However the laws of physics and E&M are what they are and they are some of the most thoroughly tested and verified "theories" in the history of the known universe.

And to reiterate, if a singular piece of metal could have a capacitance relative to itself then the universe as we know it simply could not exist. Again, if that pisses you off that's on you, but I'd challenge any of you who disagree to go study and run all the tests you want. I've already done that, and don't feel a need to do all that over again in order to "prove" something to someone else.

The electric field is identically zero inside metal, if it were not then metal would not be a conductor and our universe could not exist. But it is and does and that's just the way it is. And because the electric field is zero inside metal, there's no way for it to have a capacitance relative to itself.

As to the "trump you" thought experiment, adding a capacitor across the coil does not give it a capacitance, all it does is the coil shorts out the capacitor. At DC the result is that the combination has zero capacitance (as does the coil at any freq, zero=DC on up...)

The combination IS a resonant circult and will display a complex, frequency-dependent reactive behavior... However not because the coil has capacitance, but because you've added capacitance and created a multiple-element circuit.

However and in the end, as Mr Fany (Farny, excuse me I can't quite read the small print at times) and others have pointed out in their own ways, for all their simplicity a guitar pup is a very complex elecro-mechanical device, and notwithstanding the alledged (spelling?) miniscule capacitance the coil has to itself, there are so many variables involved that experience and experimentation are the best way to arrive at good designs.

Having worked on complex Cray-based mag-field models for both exotic high-powered water-cooled electromagnets AND even more exotic, ultra-pure rare-earth permanent magnetics in exotic configurations, that much I can say...

 

[jackthehack]

"people who think they are smart because they have an education realy piss me off!!!" should be indicative that you're dealing with an American and further intelligent conversation is untenable. Q / V  = C is beyond their ken in many cases, much less discussion of physics or particle states.

 

[DiMitriR33]

if a capacitor that has been shunted with a coil does no longer has the property of capacitence then is there a more apropriate term for the property that creates the resonant circuit. really the argument is all symanics did i explain it with all the proper terms and such. if you would enlighten us to a better way to explain it than the way it has been explained by many experts on pickup such as Seymour Duncan or Helmuth E.W. Lemme i'd have no problems with that. it is aparent to them that a pickup is a resonant circuit within it's self and the upper rolloff is within the audible range. it is also aparent to many that a sloppily wound pup often show slightly more highs and give diferent reading on the test equipment that lead them to the efects or a smaller capacitor shunting them out and not a smaller inductor. and i beleive i admitted it is of only a small importance as a guitar cable has capacitence. so if instead of saying no that is wrong and has no merit maybe you could give a better more thorough explaination to the resonant effect or a coil and better termanology. don't tell some one there are entirely wrong just to sound smart, teach please, i atemp to when i can. but it is obvious i'm not the true expert. i site information when i can and don't explain thing over my head.

maybe my opening statement was uncalled for, but i assure you i'm about the most intelligent high school drop out you'll meet. i'm still young and have thing to learn but am entirely capable of inteligent conversation. my point was that shooting down an idea does no good with out explaining the truth behind it.

here is an example, i fiddle with electronic but my strong point is geomety, make me a great machinist. my real intrests are in racing.
there are so many things people do to engines that give more power but for reasons other than the reason why they did it it isn't even funny. i can't talk to other car guys because they wont be educated. people line bore the main jornals thinking if they are in line there is less friction not realizing that at temp the block warp quite a bit. and the crank counter weights can only compensate for a recipricating mass so much as the centripital force is a constant variable. never mind the oil splashing around. at speed the crank is twisting and flexing way more than any block is out of line. the reason to line bore a block is to make the holes smaller (the bearing housing are split and you first mill the halves then line bore) and give the bearing more crush, this helps a bit in heat transfer and prevents a spun bearing. but try to explain that to the guy who's been doing that for 20 years and knows it works. yes it works. i know that.

so please enlighten us.

 

[guitlouie]

I have no idea what any of you are talking about.  Anyone want a sandwich? 

 

[ibob74]

What kind of sandwich?

 

[guitlouie]

Well, tomorrow's special will be a Beurre Rogue burger.  8 oz flame broiled burger with grilled mushrooms, gorgonzola cheese, a generous pat of beurre rogue (french style compound butter,  basically a red wine reduction blended with butter) capped with deep fried shallots and lettuce and tomato on a crusty kaiser roll!  Diet food it is not....

 

[RLW]

1970's Pizza Hut Sandwich

Crank your oven as high as it will go. Do not broil. Do NOT broil!

Split your poorboy (or whatever you call them in you neck of the woods...) bun almost in half, and lay on a sheet pan.
Completely cover the bread with sliced Mozzarella cheese. Don't leave any bread exposed, or the bread will burn.
On one side layer 3 pieces of Canadian Bacon.
On the other, 3 pieces of Hard Salami.
Cook until everything gets greazy, nasty, and sloppy looking. You'll know when.

Remove from oven, and add shredded lettuce and sliced tomato.
LIBERALLY anoint with Creamy Italian Dressing, cut in half, and serve over a plate filled with Ruffles Original Potato Chips. Nothing else works.

Make sure that you hold the sandwich over the chips while you eat, so that the mixture of dressing and meat juices drip out and land on the chips. Yummy!  Enjoy this with the beer(s) and napkin(s) of your choice.

Rich

 

[tfarny]

Um, I think somebody hijacked my thread? guys....?

I definitely got the answers I wanted from this thread, so thanks everybody - noone seems to have a good, clear engineering-related answer as to why a lollar p90 is better than something cheaper made with identical materials / identical wind.  Seems to be more a question of getting just what you want from the boutique guys, as opposed to fewer options from the lower-end. There also may be a TAD bit of snob appeal involved, ?no? But at the same time, after spending $400 on the perfect neck, why worry about an extra $40 or so for the right pups?

 

[bpmorton777]

RLW,

Im so glad you decided not to leave!  

Guitlouie,

you are the sunshine of this board.

this thread had turned into that scene from Lord of the Rings where all the orcs had started to kill each other in the tower by chain reaction.

Brian

 

[RLW]

Thank you, and I appreciate your comments.

I was in a seriously foul mood the other night, and sick and tired of trolls.

Rich

ps-Try my sandwich recipe, it will knock your socks off.

 

[bpmorton777]

yes

will have to try the sandwich.. :icon_thumright:...and a few beers. Bass ale is the prefered! ccasion14:

Brian

 

[neilium]

I'm finishing my next guitar in Buerre Rouge.

 

[guitlouie]

tfarny...sorry, did not mean to side track everyone, but seriously, I got lost about 7 posts back.  Pickups are pickups.  And yes, there is a serious snob-factor involved with the boutiques, just as there is with anything involving the word boutique!

RLW...  I too am very glad you are still around, and you will have to update us on ole Bridgette, but maybe in some other thread.  And the sandwich sounds positively....messy.

bpmorton...Yeah, orcs...that is almost exactly what I was thinking!  Orcs weilding magnetic fields and coils as weapons.

Neilium....That would be approximately the color of squashed blueberries.  Not sure Re-Ranch carries that, but good luck!

 

[DiMitriR33]

sorry tfarny i like to argue the insignificant, ya know just to be thorough

and i'll have a pb&j