amp overdrive question

[tt0511]

I noticed last night that there is a difference in sound between my amp's lead channel versus using a RAT or Boss DS-1 on the amp's clean channel.  What actually happens in the amp that makes the difference?  When you use a distortion stomp box on the clean channel, is it driving the preamp tubes, all the tubes or is it simulating an amps overdriven sound and not pushing the tubes at all?

I think I preferred the stomp boxes on the clean channel over the amp's lead channel.  Of course, that's at bedroom volumes though.  What's driving this question is all the discussion in the other two threads I have going right now on digital effects vs. analog, and fizzy amp sound.  I'm wondering if all I need are some good pedals in front of my amp or if I do need to pursue getting a new rig.  I do like my classic 30 amp, but I feel I can't get the amount of gain out of it I want.  I want to spend some more time with the amp, ask questions, and learn more about it before dropping a grand on another amp and possibly regretting it later.  The classic 30 just doesn't seem quite aggressive enough for my tastes currently, but I like the clean channel and the amp can definitely do all the classic rock stuff.  But I'm not playing much classic rock these days or listening to it.  I'm quite burned out on classic rock having grown up on it.  I'm leaning to the heavier side of stuff nowadays, ...from rock to heavy rock to possibly mild metal tones.

Since I can't crank up the classic 30 at home without a power attenuator, I'm sure I'm not getting all the tone out of this amp that's in it.  (But attenuators are expensive)  So, at home volumes (since I don't play out very often at all) do I get a pedal board setup to generate the tones I'm looking for from the classic 30?  Do I get a small 1w-5w amp that I like so I can crank it at home and get the distortion level I'm looking for?  Do I need to change out the classic 30 for another 30 watt-ish combo that will do higher gain?

I know there is always opinion and preference.  What would you do in my shoes?  I'm going to try out some amps at GC tomorrow and that will hopefully make things more clear rather than muddy the waters further.  But I like input from those more experienced than myself.  Lots to learn from you guys.

 

[rockskate4x]

almost every piece of equipment that you use is going to sound different. I can't tell you exactly what's going on in the signal chain, but i can say that pedal is designed differently from the components in your amp that make the overdrive sounds, so naturally... it'll sound different.

 

[Patrick from Davis]

This is a bit light on some details, but I am unsure what you are looking for.

The distorted sound is "clipped" waves.  If you think of a sine wave, this is a good starting point.  To clip the wave, you clip off the peak and trough of the wave and make it more like a square wave.  That is the distortion.  With overdrive, the concept is the gain (y axis) of the wave is large enough that it exceed the capacity of the next stage of the amp to reproduce it exactly and the next stage clips the ends of it off at it's limits.  With distortion boxes, this is achieved with some anti parallel diodes.  It takes a threshold voltage for the diode to work, above that and the signal goes to ground, effectively squaring off the peaks and valleys of the wave going through it.  Fuzz pedals do something slightly different, and so do overdrive pedals.  I have read that there about four main designs that encompass the "dirt" box world. 

Now, tubes clip differently than diodes.  Hell, read about hi gain sections of amps and which tubes are the ultimate and you will see that tubes don't behave the same either.  Silicon, LED's, Germanium diodes clip differently as well.  Why one sounds better or worse is very personal.

Why does distortion through a clean channel sounds better, well for more Metal sounds it, in theory, should.  The metal amp is designed to have a high, very high, gain preamp followed by a power section that does not distort.  This allows for the chaos of the preamp to be in sharp focus from the power amp.  By using the pedal and the clean section of your amp, you are basically putting this "design" into motion.  If you put distortion on distortion it tends to clip the clipped and most of the detail is lost.  Then it sounds sludgy, like too much out of a Fuzz pedal.  The limit of distortion and what sounds good is a difficult thing to pin down. 

So there is a bit more info, and what was mentioned previously is absolutely correct as well.  Good luck
Patrick

 

[Superlizard]

If'n you want different shades of dist/OD (like I do) and don't want the amp to be
a one-trick pony, you gotta find a pedal-friendly amp, run it somewhat clean
but enough for powert00bage, and rely on the stompbox to flavor your dist/OD.

I have different "shades" of dist/OD with my stompboxes to give me the level of gain/type of tone I need.

I typically set the amp to "5" (which on a JTM45 is pretty clean with a little grit) so there's powert00bs in the tone,
and use whatever stompbox out front... but I'm also using a HotPlate to control the volume levels.

 

[dbw]

SuperLizard describes a great rig.  This is basically what I do, or what I will do again when I get my amp repaired  :doh:

To my ear there are three categories of distortion... stompboxes, which you can find in a huge variety and can sound like anything; preamp distortion, which you can hear on every metal album made after 1990 (Tool, for example); and power amp distortion, which you can hear on most classic rock recordings (pretty much any AC/DC tune).  Preamp distortion can be replaced by pedals for a killer sound; as SL said, you usually don't want to use both together.  Power amp distortion can always be added by cranking the volume, and it always sounds good.  You can't get power amp distortion at bedroom volumes unless you have an attenuator!  You can also add preamp dirt by using a clean boost pedal.

 

[tt0511]

Man, this is great info guys!  Thanks so much!

You know, I like the clean channel on my Classic 30.  With the boost on the amp "off" I can almost bear to have it at 4 and be in the same room.  But, it's a bit loud at 4.  More like 3-3.5 out of 12, ...not eleven, but this one goes to twelve.

Sounds like I definitely like the preamp distortion.  I was getting the impression that the "correct" way to go is to find a two channel amp on which you like the clean and lead channels and NOT rely on pedals.  But this can probably lead into some heavy expense because it most likely leads to boutique amp territory is my guess.  The idea seemed to be that the best tone is reached by not using pedals like this but by going straight to the amp with the exception of modulation effects and delay.  Perhaps that's true.  It's expensive though.  With this info, I'm feeling that the best bang for my buck would be spent on a good pedaltrain pedal board and maybe one or two high quality stomp boxes.

It's not that I don't like my classic 30, ...I do.  I just feel it isn't reaching the tones I am hearing in my head and in the music that inspires my own playing.  It's a little too classic rock, ..which I like at times, but it's not where I'm headed with MY musical growth and style.  Since I prefer the sound of my classic 30 with stomp boxes out front, it sounds like what I probably need to do is set up a good pedal board to run on the 30's clean channel rather than selling my amp to get another one.  And then, buy an attenuator down the road to be able to reach that sweet spot of the amp.  That makes me happy if that's the case.  I could still rely on the classic 30's lead channel for classic rock tunes when I need it, and use stomps for my preferred heavy rock tastes (Petrucci, Van Halen, Andy Timmons, etc. in no particular order).

 

[MUYFUE]

I LOVE this topic.  arty07:

Overall the Classic 30 has it's limits as far as aggression goes. You mentioned that it is not getting as "agressive" as you like. You like the clean sound and may regret selling the amp. I can identify with this problem, although I play through a VERY different setup!

You were asking about why it sounds different using the Lead channel vs. the Clean channel with a stompbox.

1. Using the Lead chanel is going to drive the preamp and send that distorted sound to the power section.
2. Using the Clean channel is going to send a much cleaner sound through the preamp tubes and send that to the power section.
2. a. (haha) putting a dist. pedal on the clean channel will send a distorted sound to to the preamp, then hit the power stage.

So, you achieve a similar result, a distorted sound. The difference, as my friends have said, is due to the way the pedal clips the signal, and the shaping and eq that the particular pedal has. Just like it sounds, this is before the signal gets to the power section, which will have its own effect, based on the vol. at which you play.  

If I were in your shoes...and I didn't want to sell my amp...I'd go in this order.
1. Decide the purpose of the rig. Are you going to stay at home and jam at low volume, you gonna crank it and wake the neighbors, you gonna use it in a live band?
2. You mentioned you like the clean sound. Use that as the base for your desired tone. They key, and SL alluded to this, is the Vol/saturation of the power amp. Set the amp to the desired levels and there you've got you're base tone.
3.  Using THAT volume and your desired clean sound, THEN start putting pedals out in front.
4. Season (amp eq) to taste

If you feel you'll regret selling the amp, keep it.

-edit- I'm always late to the party.  :sad1:

 

[kboman]

Many guitarists have accomplished great things using a very clean amp and pedals - David Gilmour and Robert Fripp spring to mind, for example. I'd keep the Classic 30 for now and look into quality stomp boxes. YouTube and other forums for user reviews will not tell you exactly how they will sound in your rig, but they can give you great clues about the general sound, reliability, pricing and build quality.

 

[tt0511]

I LOVE this topic.  arty07:

Overall the Classic 30 has it's limits as far as aggression goes. You mentioned that it is not getting as "agressive" as you like. You like the clean sound and may regret selling the amp. I can identify with this problem, although I play through a VERY different setup!

You were asking about why it sounds different using the Lead channel vs. the Clean channel with a stompbox.

1. Using the Lead chanel is going to drive the preamp and send that distorted sound to the power section.
2. Using the Clean channel is going to send a much cleaner sound through the preamp tubes and send that to the power section.
2. a. (haha) putting a dist. pedal on the clean channel will send a distorted sound to to the preamp, then hit the power stage.

So, you achieve a similar result, a distorted sound. The difference, as my friends have said, is due to the way the pedal clips the signal, and the shaping and eq that the particular pedal has. Just like it sounds, this is before the signal gets to the power section, which will have its own effect, based on the vol. at which you play.  

If I were in your shoes...and I didn't want to sell my amp...I'd go in this order.
1. Decide the purpose of the rig. Are you going to stay at home and jam at low volume, you gonna crank it and wake the neighbors, you gonna use it in a live band?
2. You mentioned you like the clean sound. Use that as the base for your desired tone. They key, and SL alluded to this, is the Vol/saturation of the power amp. Set the amp to the desired levels and there you've got you're base tone.
3.  Using THAT volume and your desired clean sound, THEN start putting pedals out in front.
4. Season (amp eq) to taste

If you feel you'll regret selling the amp, keep it.

-edit- I'm always late to the party.  :sad1:

Luckily I don't live in a condo or apartments.  I have a home with a room dedicated to one half studio, one half = wife's desk / personal space.  I can crank the amp some, but not quite enough I feel.  This amp serves the purpose of playing at home (mostly) and the occassional gig.  Since I have thoughts of joining a band in the future, ...even if it's just a garage band with no gigs, for the purposes of fun and musical growth, I need to keep this amp's 30 watt range which is perfect for small to medium gigs.  Without an attenuator, I won't be able to crank the amp at home like you fellers are talking bout, but the amp does sound pretty good at moderate home volumes.

Also, going this route would free me up to pickup a 1-5watt amp that I could crank higher at home.  I've really got my eye on the 5watt Blackstar head to run through my Mesa cab.  Just seems like it's hard to go wrong with that outfit.  Hopefully I'll find one used at a good price.  But, they are so cheap that it's not hard to save up money for one.  Kinda hard to come up with the clams for a high dollar tube amp though.

The only thing is, ...you are mentioning building off the clean sound.  The classic 30 has a nice warm clean sound that some people say is Fender-ish.  I really like Fender cleans better though.  But, I've read that Fender amps are more picky about what pedals they like.  I've also read many, many times that the classic 30 loves pedals.  So, not sure if I should check out a Fender for the cleans or not based on this.

 

[tt0511]

Many guitarists have accomplished great things using a very clean amp and pedals - David Gilmour and Robert Fripp spring to mind, for example. I'd keep the Classic 30 for now and look into quality stomp boxes. YouTube and other forums for user reviews will not tell you exactly how they will sound in your rig, but they can give you great clues about the general sound, reliability, pricing and build quality.

Thanks for that reference!  I think this is what I'm gonna do for now.  I can try pedals out at GC on a classic 30 there.

 

[dbw]

Good idea, maybe look for a 2-channel distortion pedal, or a distortion and a fuzz...

 

[Superlizard]

The only thing is, ...you are mentioning building off the clean sound.  The classic 30 has a nice warm clean sound that some people say is Fender-ish.  I really like Fender cleans better though.  But, I've read that Fender amps are more picky about what pedals they like.  I've also read many, many times that the classic 30 loves pedals.  So, not sure if I should check out a Fender for the cleans or not based on this.

There are pedals out there (clean boost types) that you can use to add a non-harsh, smooth "sparkle" on top
of your base clean tone, such as the Z-Vex Super Hard On or Super-Duper 2in1 (I had one of these).

So when you go to the store, try one of those (Z-Vex SHO or SD 2in1) or other clean boost on the clean channel
and see what you think.

(but remember, how clean you can get does of course depend on how hot your pickups are)

 

[tt0511]

Cool.  Here are the pedals I have currently:

Bad Horsey Wah
Digitech Whammy
Boss DS-1
RAT
MXR Dyna Comp
Boss NS-2 Noise Suppressor
Boss TU-2 Tuner
Line 6 DL4
MXR Phase 90

What I'm missing is a tube screamer / overdrive type pedal.  Pedals I plan to check out:

Fulltone OCD
Voodoo Sparkle Drive (compared to OCD)
Mod Tone Clean Boost (one of the only two or three clean boosts offered by G.C.)
Visual Sound Jeckyl & Hyde Overdrive and Distortion (dual pedal)

What else should I check out that Guitar Center or Sam Ash carries?

I plan to have the Fulltone OCD or Voodoo as my overdrive and a clean boost for lead boosts or crackly clean tones.

 

[jackthehack]

Xotic BB!!!!

 

[MUYFUE]

I've heard good things about the Jekyll and Hyde.

 

[tt0511]

Yeah, I forgot the BB drive pedal.  I'm gonna check that out too.  While we're talking about pedal boards, ...I have two One Spot power supplies with daisy chains currently.  Is there a difference between those and a Pedal Power type supply?  I hate to pay the price for one of those boxes for no good reason but I'm open to hearing what ya'll have to say since I'm building my pedal board now.

I like the distortion from the RAT but I noticed that it's almost impossible to keep hand movement noise quiet when using that pedal.  I'm a fairly clean player and that was pissing me off last night.  Maybe the Jeckyl and Hyde can replace that pedal, but I know lots of people love the RAT and this one is from the 80's.  My pro bass player friend found it in the top of his closet when moving last year and gave it to me free, ha ha.  Some guy left it in his house while doing some sessions and left it back in the 80's.  He never came back for it.

 

[dbw]

Just crank that RAT in front of your amp  arty07:

Sorry about the noise, that's what happens when you turn up the volume

 

[tt0511]

Well, I thought I had posted this earlier today.  I must have forgotten to hit the "post" button.

While I'm at it building my pedal board, will my two One Spot power supplies with daisy chains be sufficient?  I'm curious to know if there's justification for a Power Pedal or equivalent.  What's the difference between these power supplies if any.

 

[mayfly]

one trick that's always worked for me on blackface fenders, AC30s and two channel marshalls is to have one channel set fairly clean at a good level.  Then gently boost this with an OD pedal to get a crunch style rhythm tone.  Then for your lead sound switch in the other channel, which is dimed.  You end up with two channels on at once, both boosted with the OD.  The dimed channel is really dark and full, and the other channel adds that sparkle for definition.  For the AC30, this works really great when you use the top boost channel as the 'clean' channel, and the normal channel as the loud one.  Unfortunately in a stock old-style AC30, the top boost and normal channels are out of phase - you need to mod the amp a bit to get this to work.  But it's the cat's ass once it's running.

You'll want some way of pulling in the volume with this method though.

 

[mayfly]

Well, I thought I had posted this earlier today.  I must have forgotten to hit the "post" button.

While I'm at it building my pedal board, will my two One Spot power supplies with daisy chains be sufficient?  I'm curious to know if there's justification for a Power Pedal or equivalent.  What's the difference between these power supplies if any.

Depends entirely on the current rating of your power supplies and the current draw of the pedals you intend to run.  The current rating of the supply should be written on it, and the current draw of the pedal should be available for the better makes (Boss, for example,  tends to publish this - not sure about the boutique guys).

A long time ago I designed and built a regulated 9V 1A power supply for my pedal board.  It's been sufficient for my various pedal experiments for the past 20 years.