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1991 59 Bassman 4x10

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So I have this reissue Bassman tweed amp that sounds awesome until I turn it way up. Then the low E string notes get kind of flubby. Yeah, I know this is part of the legendary sound of these but it makes me hesitant to go out and gig with it. I suppose the low end breaking up so much is a combination of the 45 watts and the Alnico speakers. It has a solid state rectifier in it that I left in there since a tube rectifier would just cause it to break up even sooner.

Here's my question to you experience tube amp guys; what is causing the flubby low end the most...the tubes or the speakers. I thought about changing out two of the Alnico speakers for a couple of Eminence Ragin Cagins. Perhaps this way I could get a bit more solid notes at louder levels without loosing too much of the good vibe this amp is putting out. The tubes in it are new. Any thoughts?
 
The Alnico Gold from Celestion is having good reviews as having the tone of the blue alnico and handing more gain and volume without that distortion, the only problem is that they're quite expensive :tard:
 
How old are the speakers?
At this high volume does this happen only in the lower register?
My vote is the speakers...A buddy of mine picked up the same amp (it was a floor model) and it does the same kinda thing, even after re-tubing it.
 
MUYFUE said:
How old are the speakers?
At this high volume does this happen only in the lower register?
My vote is the speakers...A buddy of mine picked up the same amp (it was a floor model) and it does the same kinda thing, even after re-tubing it.
Original speakers - 1991. They sound great for low to medium volume so they're not blown...just blowing a bit too hard. Yes, it's mostly just the low notes being flubby sounding that are worrying me about using it live.
 
You can try a weber copper cap solid state rectifier. It should toighten things up. I do not belive the jensens are the problem. I had that amp ( a handwired mojotone copy) and its a very good sounding amp. You can make it sound brigher, but it'll still get bass-y..hey, its a bass amp.
I sold mine becuase at the end of the day it just wasnt loud enuf for me..but i'm a hundred watt marshall guy and i play at home wth alot of drapes and stuff that soaks up the sound. My buddies 18 watt Marshall in his concrete garage was plenty loud enough. Ohh, you can also try a 5751 in V1, and youll get breakup sooner.
How are the tubes? Maybe a fresh set?
 
I'd say its most likely going to be the speaker breaking up as you push the amp up towards the edge of the speaker's operating limit.

As Gregg suggested, a set of more efficient, more 'powerful' speakers will probably help a bit, but be prepared for a tone change.  I'm not familiar with Eminence guitar speakers, but they make pretty good PA speakers as I recall, so its a fair bet that their guitar speakers will work nicely.

Let us know how you get on.

 
I like so-called "PA" speakers - you hear the sound of the tubes. Speaker breakup is hard to get right, there have been some happy historical accidents, but I would guess they mostly came after the experimenters blew the weaker speakers, then upgraded. I just bought an Eminence Beta 12A that's dead-clean, 250 watts, $65 - my kind of speaker. I like Peavey Black Widows too, I like vintage  JBLs and Altec-Lansings too but I can''t afford 'em. :sad1:
 
For my "Hi Gain" and high wattage handling cabinet I used a mix of Vintage 30's and G12T75's from celestion.  That really got me the best of both worlds.  The warmth of the vintage sound and the clarity and definition with the newer style speakers.  It doesn't sound like in your case the speakers are holding their shape, once that happens they lose their ability to keep a defined sound.  I'd start by putting in two speakers that are not of a "vintage" sound design design that can handle higher wattage.  This will tighten up the sound, but at the output range you are talking it would probably fix what you are talking about.  If need be you can replace all four later.
Patrick

 
My buddy, the guy with the same amp, he likes the way it sounds...(shrugs shoulders) to each his own, I guess.
If it were me, I'd replace the speakers.

Jerry's idea sounds interesting. I've never tried anything like that.
 
Patrick from Davis said:
For my "Hi Gain" and high wattage handling cabinet I used a mix of Vintage 30's and G12T75's from celestion.  That really got me the best of both worlds.  The warmth of the vintage sound and the clarity and definition with the newer style speakers.  It doesn't sound like in your case the speakers are holding their shape, once that happens they lose their ability to keep a defined sound.  I'd start by putting in two speakers that are not of a "vintage" sound design design that can handle higher wattage.  This will tighten up the sound, but at the output range you are talking it would probably fix what you are talking about.  If need be you can replace all four later.
Patrick

Yeah, I think this makes pretty good sense to try first. It makes it a bit more challenging to mic for bigger shows but I'll address that later I suppose with two mics. Thanks for the ideas on this!
 
Gregg, dunno how much playing the amp has, but the Fender blue alnico's by Eminence were noted for having a very long break in curve.  Lets say that they're broken in though.  So, to tighten up the bottom of a tube amp, you have to look at its circuit.  At close 18 years old, the main capacitors are getting to the point where they might consider retirement.  Tubes... if you can find some 7581's those are the 5881's on steroids, and deliver 35w each in the same envelope with the same heater spec.  But, the real gotcha on the Bassman 5F6's is the way they have things arranged.  What you've got is two gain stages, then a high current (relatively) cathode follower pushing the tone stack, then the driver.  Those two gain stages cascaded is going to breakup.  The FIRST preamp tube on the input side of the amp is supposed to be a 12AY7 for the original layout.  But nearly everyone runs a 12AX7 there.  I suggest you verify the 12AY7, trying a few types.  The 12AT7 would also be worth trying, but they're not noted for being spectacular in the input position.  For the SECOND tube, you want a very high headroom, chimey 12AX7... and you'll have to experiement there.  BUT... you might find that double 12AY7's tames things a good deal.  The circuit shouldn't really fart out too bad on the low end, but should be very rich in the mids, and breakup pretty evenly across the board from low to high.  You might actually try playing bass through it for a bit to make sure the speakers are broken in.  FWIW, the 10ALK (Fender Blue Alnico) is one of the better 10's out there once broken in.  Fender realized this, but the consumer market wanted a speaker that sounded great out of the box - hence those speakers/amps got a bad reputation for brittleness and bad low end.  All of this went away with some playing of bass through the amp, which loosened up the spiders and surrounds. 

The best 10 guitar speaker for low end that I ever tried was the older Celestion Vintage 10.  I have not tried the revised one, but the old ones kick major butt.  Right now I've got a 2x10 Tremolux in a combo cabinet - 35w, tube rectifier, and it does not fart out on the low end, so the speakers are up to the task.  I've also got a 2x10 blackface Bassman that moves huge amounts of air with the Vintage 10's.  Folks comment on the breeze they can feel on their leg!  I've played with that amp to break up nicely after about 4-1/2, but the low end does not fart.

I dunno.. hope some of that can help ya.  One of the reasons I prefer the earlier Bassman, like the 5E6, is the older pre-Baxandall tone stack ensures thick mids, while the Baxandall type is mid scooped as used by Fender (and the rest).  The thick mids, to me at least, are the essence of nice breakup without shrillness, or farty-ness.  Starting with the 5F6 (1959) they used the more modern tone stack, but kept the two stages of gain prior to it... eventually moving the tone stack between the first and 2nd gain stage in someof the brown face, and all of the blackface series of amps.

 
I don't know if the model of Bassman you have is one with a way to substitute a different cabinet to play through, but that would tell if it was a speaker issue or an electronics issue without much work.  There is always the, "got a load of speakers that were built in a bad batch," randomness that can come up.  At any rate, there are quite a number of things to try.  I am curious to know what it turns out to be.
Patrick

 
I should also note that in addition to the 12AY7, the 12AU7 can be tried.  The 12AX7 is the highest gain of any of the 12A*7 tubes.  The 12AT7 is about 80 percent as I recall.  The 12AU7 and 12AY7 (and 12AZ7) are all lower gain than that.  Generally speaking, as "gain" goes down, current handling goes up.  The 12AU7 handles gobs of current, but is relatively low in gain.  The 12AT7 also handles a decent amount of current - which is why its used as a driver, where there is some chance of cathode current (AC current) flow, rather than just voltage swings into a very high impedance.
 
Wow, that is some info you have to read about Gregg!

Personally I'd try some old fashioned isolation testing to see if it's the speakers or the circuit and/or tubes first, before buying new speakers or tubes.

If you can grab a speaker box with, say, 4 x 12s that usually has a Marshall Plexi or  Mesa Boogie high gain amp driving it without 'flubbiness', see if you hook up the Bassman for a run through and see if the amp still sounds flubby in the bass end, up high. Check your impedances, of course.

If you can't do that, maybe start with some of the suggestions above, by starting at the cheapest suggestion first.
=CB=s suggestion about changing the preamp tubes for more docile sounds a good idea to start with.
 
Cool, great ideas guys, especially CB. I have some other tubes and speaker boxes around so I will get swapping some stuff around and see what we get!
 
Alright, getting back to cleaning up the Bassman tone after being distracted with other things. I installed new tubes 4 months ago. Three ECC83S preamp tubes with one of them balanced for the phase inverter then a matched pair of the JJ 6L6GC's. So it looks like I may have the wrong tube in the number one position.

CB; I have a nice hot 12AX7 I can install for the second position. Thinking I can pickup a pair of 12AY7 tubes to try in the first then even second position perhaps. What brand should I be looking at?  Prices can get pretty crazy it looks like...
 
12AY7's are not as common... I'd see what they had over at thetubestore.com and shy from remarked brands aka "groove tubes"  "tad" etc.  A quick look shows they got EH tubes available.  Maybe over at tubesandmore.com they have more selection.
 
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