Zebrawood stain/dye

[MattPurland]

Hi Guys,

I've just purchased my first Warmoth (yay!) from the showcase. It's a Mahogany body with a Zebrawood top and a birdseye maple neck (see attached). I'd like to stain/dye the Zebrawood a nice deep red, but not too sure what to use. I'd like to also have natural masked binding around the lip of the zebrawood and stain the mahogany black. To finish the guitar I'd like to use a wax of some sort.

My questions are: What dye/stain should I use? Is wax the best choice of finish? Is natural binding in this way relatively easy?

I've tried to create a mock-up in Photoshop, but my 'shop skills are dire at best.

I'd going to simply oil the neck (in case you're curious)

Cheers,
Matt

 

[MattPurland]

neck pictures attached

 

[jimh]

Thats a great looking birdseye neck.  Lovely, but be aware that if you just oil the neck it wont be covered by any of the Warmoth guarantees.
See the below extract from the website.

All our necks are dipped in an oil based penetrating sealer which is compatible with virtually all secondary finishes. This provides enhanced stability; however, it is not adequate protection for playing. We strongly recommend you apply a hard finish to all Maple, Mahogany, and Koa necks. Oils do not validate our warranty requirements. We understand the attraction of raw or lightly oiled necks. They feel fast and are not sticky. Unfortunately, they are much more susceptible to moisture related warping and twisting. Our experience is that hard finished necks seldom warp. Less than 1 out of 200 (0.5%) are returned for warpage. Raw or oiled necks don't fare as well. About 10% are rendered useless from the torture. The more acidic your perspiration, the higher the odds are against you.
If you must play a raw neck, that's cool; it's ok. A neck is just a tool. Just be aware of the risk. If yours does the pretzel act, we don't want to hear about it.
For a valid warranty, a hard finish must be sufficiently thick to completely cover the wood. That means no wood is exposed and you are actually playing on the finish, not the wood. Now, it does not matter to us who applies the finish. Of course we would like to do the finish for you, but if you choose to do it yourself or have it done elsewhere the warranty is still valid.

I'm not saying you cant or shouldn't do it, it is YOUR neck after all, but just be aware !

Other than that, Welcome, and I like it!

 

[MattPurland]

Cheers, and thanks for the heads up!

What sort of finish would you recommend? I'm all for the satin feel, but don't really want to spray it - is there any type of wipe on finish I could try? I'd also like to try something that would bring out the birdseye too

Thanks,
Matt

 

[Unwound G]

You can use pre-mixed pigment stains like the selection they sell at Stewart-MacDonald  (http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Finishing_supplies/Colors,_tints,_and_stains/ColorTone_Concentrated_Liquid_Stain.html).  Mahogany Red would be close to what you have mocked up for the face. Always test the shade on a piece of scrap wood before staining the body.

To do a natural binding, you need to tape up the whole body leaving only the strip exposed where you want for the natural binding.  Shoot lacquer on the exposed area a few times.  Once dried, remove the taped up area and begin staining on both sides of the body.  The stain will not bleed into the lacquered strip hence creating a division between the front and the back.

Try not to use wax for the body as it does not really absorb into the wood to form a protective layer.  Oil finishes would be a better choice.  A lot of forum members here like to use Tru-Oil which is easy to apply and acceptable by Warmoth in terms of warrantee.

 

[MattPurland]

Great, thanks for the info!

As I'm from the UK, I've found the following stains:

http://www.behlen.co.uk/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Category_Code=DYEST

Scroll down to the bottom half of the list, would you guys recommend that? I know you can't give an opinion on something you've never used, but is the type of stain suitable?

Thanks,
Matt

 

[yyz2112]

Zebrawood doesn't take dye/stain very well in my experience. It's a bit of an oily wood, so you may have some work ahead of you getting the color you want.

 

[dmraco]

dude...here is mine...MINWAX oil based stain, followed by spray satin poly.  I too used a maple neck.  I stained the neck 1st because the maple does not take the stain as well.  I then diluted the stain with naptha and did little test areas in the pickup area until the color matched.  turned out great.

The back is korina...no grain filler.

 

[Watershed]

Zebrawood doesn't take dye/stain very well in my experience. It's a bit of an oily wood, so you may have some work ahead of you getting the color you want.

That was my experience too.  Korina isn't too good either.

Here is what I ended up with by mixing a good deal of Red MEK Dye in pre-cat lacquer.

I ended up bursting it.

James

 

[dmraco]

nice one watershed...you need to enter that in guitar of the month!!!


I found NO issues with the either the Korina or Zebra taking the stain.  It went on very even.  Maybe because it was cut with some naptha.. ???It was probably the easiest finished I have ever used.

I too was looking at going RED like yours.  I decided to give it a little more "natural" look.  It does have some red casting to it but not nearly as much as yours.

 

[Keyser Soze]

Zebrawood doesn't take dye/stain very well in my experience. It's a bit of an oily wood, so you may have some work ahead of you getting the color you want.

I've never actually worked with zebrawood but that was my first thought exactly.

All is not lost though.  Rather than dye the wood you could use a spray on toner, like one of these

http://www.behlen.co.uk/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Category_Code=JETSP

Maybe the Red Mahogany...

In my experience sprayed on products tend to provide a much more hard/crisp line for things like masking effects (dyes always having the potential to creep/bleed under sealed wood.)

I've used Behlen (which are actually just re-branded Mohawk products) rattle can toners for bursts and tinting on guitars and table tops and they are high quality and fairly user friendly.  When applying just remember that it is much easier to add more color later than it is to remove too much once it has been applied. (To be perfectly safe spend the money for an extra can and practice on some scrap wood before shooting the body.)

(The more I frequent this board the more I seem to see people have the notion that stains are somehow the safe/easy option.  I know I once thought that way too.  Well, that's not necessarily the case, particularly with guitar bodies and the types of effects that many people want to create.  Traditionally these looks (bursts, natural binding, primary color clear coats, etc.) have been accomplished using spray gear and that is because this approach is the most reliable way to get good results.)
 
Also - if you have properly prepped and sealed the wood prior to shooting a colored toner and things don't go as planned (or you just don't like the results) it is very easy to remove the color and start over, something that cannot be said for stains.

As far as the neck you could also check out the Re-Ranch message board, they have some great tutorials on doing tru-oil (be sure to search for info specific to finishing maple fretboards - they can be tricky.)

Another EZ option for the neck would be shellac.  It wont be as durable as tru-oil, but it is super easy to re-do/repair as necessary.

 

[yyz2112]

I guess I should have said that compared to flame/quilt maple, zebra doesn't take dye as well. It will take it, but you have to go about the process a bit differently.
I can see where wiping the wood down with naptha would help cut the oily-ness.

 

[dmraco]

I think maple is the only wood that take dye really well.  I know Metalman dyed his soloist black and it tuned out great...probably becuase of the dark color, but I would not dye any wood but maple that you are looking to highlight the grain.  I would use oil based stain.

 

[Tonar8352]

Watershed,
I think your burst looks wonderful!!!!!!  Great job.  :icon_thumright: :icon_thumright: :icon_thumright:

 

[MattPurland]

Thanks for all the info guys. But now I'm a little stuck as to what to do... I'm looking at the 'Cherry Red' ColorTone stain:

http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Finishing_supplies/Colors,_tints,_and_stains/ColorTone_Concentrated_Liquid_Stain.html

as MINWAX doesn't seem to do the type of red I'm looking for. Would you recommend this? The spray satin poly looks like a good idea too.

EDIT: what about ColorTone tinted aerosol (cherry red)?
http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Finishing_supplies/Finishes_and_solvents/2/ColorTone_Aerosol_Guitar_Lacquer.html

Could I use this then go over with a satin lacquer?

 

[dmraco]

Thanks for all the info guys. But now I'm a little stuck as to what to do... I'm looking at the 'Cherry Red' ColorTone stain:

http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Finishing_supplies/Colors,_tints,_and_stains/ColorTone_Concentrated_Liquid_Stain.html

as MINWAX doesn't seem to do the type of red I'm looking for. Would you recommend this? The spray satin poly looks like a good idea too.

WOW thats red.  I have found that the StewMac worked better when mixed with water, at least on Maple.  I have nevered used it on Zebrawood.  I have used it on mahogany and Korina and it can be blotchy.  I ended up sanding it off and using Minwax.  It is worth a shot if it is the color you want.  Try a test area in the pick-up and control cavities.  If you are planning on grain filling...make sure you final sand it completely off..if any is left one the body...it will show up when the dye is applied.

 

[MattPurland]

I'm not planning on using grain filler. I'm not exactly an expert so I'd prefer to take an easier route.

What about the Minwax water based wood stains?
http://www.minwax.com/products/wood_stains/water_based_wood_stain.html#Colors

There's some nice colours in there!

 

[dmraco]

I'm not planning on using grain filler. I'm not exactly an expert so I'd prefer to take an easier route.

What about the Minwax water based wood stains?
http://www.minwax.com/products/wood_stains/water_based_wood_stain.html#Colors

There's some nice colours in there!

I agree the colors are nice.  I have only used them on maple...worked OK.  I made a faux ebony fingerboard with some black.  Again...TEST area is key!  They would be easy to work with and cheap.  An advantage of dyes is you can easily lighten/darken the color if you want by adjusting the ratio.  Stain you can only lighten.

If you are a beginner...I would say stain is the easiest.  Dyes are not too difficult but make sure you test the ratio to get the color tone you are looking for.  Mahogany should take stain well, and the zebra too.  The Zebra is an oily wood, that is why I stayed away from water or alcohol based products.  You should be able to test the zebra wood on the contrall cavity...backside of zebra is exposed....

 

[MattPurland]

Just an update as the guitar has now been dispatched by Warmoth (hell yeah!).

So here's my plan.

Dye the top (Zebrawood) using red dye from here - http://www.wood-finishes-direct.com/products/wood-finishes/wood-stains/concentrated-wood-dye.htm
Dye the bottom (Mahogany) using black dye (same page as above)
Before dying I will mask out natural binding and use a few layers of laquer so the dye doesn't penetrate the binding when I dye the wood
Go over the entire thing in satin nitro

What do you guys think?

 

[dmraco]

go for it...my only caution is dye on mahogany.  It can be blotchy depending on the wood. 

When working with Dyes, make sure you do not saturate the rag.  Less is more.

Good luck.