Wilkinson Vs-100 - ran out of adjustment on low E

[Steve_Karl]

2 string changes ago I set the intonations and found that the Low E was all the way back with no more room to go.
Using a Peterson VS-1.

Between that (2 ago) change and the one before I did a fine tuning of the nut slots, and the low E and the A got the most attention.
All of the others are low enough that I dare not touch them again and the Low E and the A are getting really close, but I take baby steps,
like one gentle pull of the file every few weeks when I get in the mood.

So back to the intonation issue ...
I almost got the low E saddle perfectly where it should be but ran out of adjustment so it was still a very tiny bit sharp.
The screw just wouldn't turn any more and it locked the saddle tight against the screw pillar that it slides on.

I sighted the neck to see the amount of relief. Yea, a bit much but I kinda like it feeling warm and gummy. It was probably at about .02"
but that's just a rough guess after putting the .010" in there and seeing all the extra room.
I'd have left it there except for the inability to get the low E intonated.

Also, the Vs-100 parallel to the body had always been a tiny bit raised in the back, but it's comes back in tune after some brutal wanging so I'd not want to have to tighten the springs any farther.

So, last night I braced up the back of the VS-100 with a piece of thick leather belt, cut the strings off and also had a good look at why the saddle wouldn't move any further. It just ran out of room, The height adjustment screws were all the back to the end of the slots that guide them, and also it was pressing against the center screw pole. I had to back off the intonation adjustment screw to get it to release from the bridge.

OK so I guess I know what's going on. Probably the combination of the excessive relief and cutting the nut slot down got me there.

So I took the neck off and tightened about 1/4 turn.
Restrung with Ernie Ball 10s.
Did the stretching trick of tuning up one string 3, 4 or 5 semi-tones at a time and leaving it there for 5 minutes.
When done ... Tuned everything again played it for a while.

Yea, it's nice. It's a bit more accurate across the whole neck I guess, slightly lower action which I can raise when / if I feel like it.
Then I checked the intonation on the low E this morning and yes ... it's reading flat now so I can move the saddle back towards the nut.

So this makes me wonder, since I'm getting close to an other build ...

... are there are any other floating knife edge trems ( where's the NO FLOYD emoji ?!?!? ) out there that are designed just like the VS-100 but have more travel in the saddle adjustment?

 

[AirCap]

The problem is NOT with the whammy, but with whoever drilled the holes for the studs too far forward.

 

[swarfrat]

I didn't read all of that, but the VS100 saddles have two screw holes. Make sure the low E is in the forward hole.

 

[Steve_Karl]

The problem is NOT with the whammy, but with whoever drilled the holes for the studs too far forward.

It's a normal Warmoth body. All holes except for the control pots drilled by Warmoth.
Well, maybe they're a tiny bit forward. The farthest forward saddle is just about in the middle.

I'll have to compare it to an other I have that's almost exactly the same except for the electronics.

Edit:
Just looked at my other strat with a VS-100. It's seems close to the edge of no more room to move.
Fortunately I know the intonations are set on that one. I guess I didn't run into the wall there but it seems like it's really close to the end.

Just double checked, got my optivisor on and a bright flash light.
There's probably slightly more than 1/32" but less than 1/16" of usable adjustment before it hits the end.

 

[Steve_Karl]

I didn't read all of that, but the VS100 saddles have two screw holes. Make sure the low E is in the forward hole.

I don't understand this swarfrat.

I have had the saddles off of this and back on, when I originally put the graphtech saddles on, and then removed those and put the stock saddles back on, and I've never seen more than one obvious tall post with a screw hole in it that the saddle fits over.
Yes, I carefully labeled then when removing so they'd go back exactly where they came from.
Can you be more specific or maybe find a drawing of it?

Yes, the saddles have 2 height adjustment screws, and 1 screw that makes sure the saddle doesn't get off of the bridge,
that screws into a post that the saddle goes over. That post is hard connected to the plate as far as I can tell and there are no other visible holes or places where it could be attached, i.e. if it could even be unattached. That post is also what the intonation screw uses to push against to keep the saddle where you put it when adjusting.

You can see all the screws here.
Those holes you can see light through are for the strings to come up through.

https://photos.google.com/share/AF1QipP13Y1p499PuCAyzsmbleL5TDhulZKJqjRKw3NAqmyANYjYvr8c7RHMTB40NKP4hg/photo/AF1QipPSniEK116khXtibKa3Xu_XL9wRyqBwU3suf3Wl?key=YXh1UDJDUHpZZFJmNGkzX2ZqNHF5MHRzZG13QTVn

 

[Cagey]

He may be thinking of a Floyd or a couple other designs where the saddle can be relocated to change its range. That's not possible on a VS-100 as it's unnecessary. With the VS-100 design, the saddle itself has a lotta adjustment range, and judging by the picture you posted, there's a lotta range left in both directions, so I'm a bit confused as to the problem.

 

[Steve_Karl]

He may be thinking of a Floyd or a couple other designs where the saddle can be relocated to change its range. That's not possible on a VS-100 as it's unnecessary. With the VS-100 design, the saddle itself has a lotta adjustment range, and judging by the picture you posted, there's a lotta range left in both directions, so I'm a bit confused as to the problem.

That pic was pre installation just to show swarfrat the screw configuration.

This is current (attached)

 

[swarfrat]

You're right. I have a Wilky. I also have a cheap knockoff floyd I bought to turn into a compensated nut for a headless bass. I forgot I had that thing, but apparently that's the last one I looked at. Sorry.

 

[Steve_Karl]

Hey ... no problem

 

[Cagey]

Then we're back to Aircap's original assessment - the mounting post holes were drilled in the wrong place. I just measured from the fretboard side of the nut to the centerline of the bridge mounting post on a Jazzmaster with a Wilkie on it, and got 25 1/8". That's with an LSR nut, so it would probably be 25 3/16" or so with a regular nut. The low E saddle has miles of adjustment left to it.

 

[Steve_Karl]

So the "someone" drilling the holes is the Warmoth computer template?

Here's a pic of my other strat with a wilkie.
This one is 2 yrs. older than the one we've been talking about here and the one pictured above.

And that's an older picture before I really got the nut slots to the correct depth for me.
Now, that low E saddle is a little bit farther back, but not all the way back.

 

[Steve_Karl]

Then we're back to Aircap's original assessment - the mounting post holes were drilled in the wrong place. I just measured from the fretboard side of the nut to the centerline of the bridge mounting post on a Jazzmaster with a Wilkie on it, and got 25 1/8". That's with an LSR nut, so it would probably be 25 3/16" or so with a regular nut. The low E saddle has miles of adjustment left to it.

I'm seeing about 25 5/32" (or very slightly less) with the same measurement here but unfortunately that's with a Stanley PowerLock and might not be spot on.

 

[swarfrat]

Out of curiosity - what's the actual 12th fret to bridge saddle measurement? Have you tried another string? A bad core could sound ok but give wonky intonation results.

On my VS100 (on a 28.625" neck) I measure 33.0cm from the 14th fret (your 12th) to the line through the height adjustment screws. According to defaults for http://www.liutaiomottola.com/formulae/compensation.htm#mozTocId8319. The 6th string should have about 7mm worth of compensation. And 1/2 of 25.5" (324mm) + 7mm worth of compensation comes out right at 330mm (and my intonation actually needs adjusting from the sound of it - I think I changed gauges and got lazy.) Close enough for forum engineering. It looks like I have about 3-4 mm more room left to wiggle.

If you can't get your saddle to 334mm, it could indeed be not right. If you can reach that with your saddle to the 12th fret, and still aren't intonating, then it's likely the string.

 

[swarfrat]

Also, could your post / fulcrum be screwed up? Deformed/epoxy/finish/dried boogers/etc...? I'd be really shocked if the hole was drilled off.

 

[Cagey]

I'm seeing about 25 5/32" (or very slightly less) with the same measurement here but unfortunately that's with a Stanley PowerLock and might not be spot on.

Well, I didn't exactly put a laser on this one, so I'll take 25 5/32". What does your other Strat measure?

 

[Steve_Karl]

I'm seeing about 25 5/32" (or very slightly less) with the same measurement here but unfortunately that's with a Stanley PowerLock and might not be spot on.

Well, I didn't exactly put a laser on this one, so I'll take 25 5/32". What does your other Strat measure?

The other one is (as far as I can see ) exactly the same. 25 5/32" ... but of course with the Stanley I'm having to eye ball it down to the 32nds. Let's just say the the 16th lines seem equal distance on both sides on the center of the post.

 

[Cagey]

I may be losing track here, but are you using the Wilkinson saddles or the Graphechs? If they're the Graphtechs, I wonder if they've got the same adjustment range?

 

[Steve_Karl]

Out of curiosity - what's the actual 12th fret to bridge saddle measurement? Have you tried another string? A bad core could sound ok but give wonky intonation results.

This is probably the 4th set of strings on here since I've noticed this.
They've all been from the same dozen box so maybe a few in a row were bad. I guess it's possible.

Unfortunately I don't have a good enough tool to measure from the center of the 12th fret to the center of the height adjustment screws, and definitely not in mm or cm.

I'm pretty sure there's no problem with the fulcrum post. It's practically brand new.
But, next time I restring I'll take the bridge off and have a very close look at the posts.

 

[Steve_Karl]

I may be losing track here, but are you using the Wilkinson saddles or the Graphechs? If they're the Graphtechs, I wonder if they've got the same adjustment range?

I went back to the stock Wilkinson saddles a while back.
When I originally removed them I tagged them with labels so that if I were going to put them back on, then the'y d go to the correct string.

 

[Cagey]

Have you tried a different tuner? Maybe the VS-1 is lying to you.

15 meters... That ain't right! That's inside the room! (looks up... AAAAAHH!!)​