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When Pups have different outputs whats the best way to wire them? (2 volumes?)

AGWAN

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My Luthier is not a fan of installing Pickups with different Outputs (lets say 140 Ohms neck, 470 Ohms bridge) and his reasons seem just. he says the Volume difference sounds horrid.

so when I do my tele. if I want HxS, can I fix this by replacing a Tone Pot with a second Volume? or would a capacitor level them out?

Any Ideas?
 
A second volume pot and/or capacitor won't do anything to balance pickup outputs.  You could lower the volume of one with the 2nd volume pot, but again it's still a higher output pickup.  Besides, rolling off the pots is better reserved for controlling and cleaning up a distorted signal, IMO.  He doesn't want to install them, but does he have any suggestions?  I'd say you could raise or lower each of them to balance them, however that compromises the sound of one or both of them.  You could get a weak humbucker and a hotter single coil.  You could also just install them and live with it.  You could alos put a permanent db boost on the weaker one.
 
AGWAN, they make these great stacked pots. install 2 of those and you will get the same control like a Gibson, but in the Tele Package
 
AGWANANA-RAMA said:
My Luthier is not a fan of installing Pickups with different Outputs (lets say 140 Ohms neck, 470 Ohms bridge) and his reasons seem just. he says the Volume difference sounds horrid.

so when I do my tele. if I want HxS, can I fix this by replacing a Tone Pot with a second Volume? or would a capacitor level them out?

Any Ideas?

Your "luthier" sounds like a dingbat. Just for starters, the DC resistance reading doesn't tell you anything about output. All it tells you is the DC resistance reading, which may relate to the number of winds on the pickup, but even that's not necessarily useful information unless both pickups were wound with the same wire off the same reel. But, then you need to know the size, configuration, and alloy of the pole pieces as well as the magnet(s) and in the case of the magnet how thoroughly saturated it is. Then, the resistance will be much higher than 140 or 470 ohms, and there's no way they'd be that disparate. You're talking a nearly 4:1 ratio there. Even an ancient '50s single coil vs. Dimarzio's white-hottest monster won't be that far apart.

But, disparities in output certainly are real, so if it's gonna be an apocalyptic life-changing event for such a situation to exist on a single guitar, all you have to do is lower the hotter pickup until it doesn't kick any harder than the wimpier unit. In real life, it's usually not that big an issue.
 
So what you are saying is get a new Luthier, buy the Pups I want and just live with the tiny difference I probably won't even be bothered by?  :icon_biggrin:
 
If you're just looking to assemble an electric guitar of some sort, I don't think you need a luthier, new, old or otherwise. That's like hiring an electrical engineer to build a PC, or a cardiac surgeon to bandage minor abrasions. Just be sure to double check your current guy on things that are important. Although, if you think about it, why hire someone you have to micro-manage? Kind of defeats the purpose, right? He's supposed to know more than you, not put you in a position where you have to do all sorts of research to learn his job in order to keep him from making mistakes or bad choices.

But, yeah. Buy the pickups you want and live with the difference, which should be easy enough to do.
 
I agree with Cagey, become your own tech, I hate to call a solid body asembler a luthier.

Theres a ton of articles on guitar setup, and theres a specific sequence to set up your guitar, just read them carefully and follow the steps. Most steps can be undone if you screw it up. even slottinga nut too deep can be undone with some super glue or shims.

You don't need a bunch of expensive tools either, but theres a few that really help, like that stew mac dial indicator for measuring string action to set nut slots correctly. But it's not neccesary.

And once you figure it all out, setup your axe and it plays nice, you have just opened a whole new bunch of doors in guitar building
 
output is not ohms. that is very true. but what the tech is talking about is that in gerenral (other factor apply) a pup with greater resistence has more windings and therefore likely more inductence and therefore likely more output.
there are humbuckers with high impedance and lower output and low impedence with great output.

the non issue that some people worry about is that the lower output pickup will short out the hot wound pickup making the mixed position sound alot like the low output pickup. non ballanced output isnt a big deal on some setups, the neck position can put out a lot of volume with a mild pickup, there are many guitars with a single coil neck and a "distortion" type humbucker bridge. you can balence it out in some cases without too much difference in height.

this is also a reason that mixing active and passive doesnt work to well, if you boost the lowwer pickup the output impedance of the boost circuit is subject to short the pasive pickup, you can match the output impedance or isolate with audio transformers but its usually not worth it, you can buffer both pickups seperately but most systems dont.

anytime two pickups are in parallel the inductance of the circuit drops, if the inductance is similar between the two you wind up with about half. this will give a higher resonant peak, this will emphisize some harmonics. if the inductance is very different the combined position will be only slightly lower than the lesser pickup, in this case there will be little difference in sound from neck to middle but a big difference from middle to bridge. (assuming the H is in the bridge)

the middle position will pickup some more harmonics over the neck only position but it wont shift the peak up to emphasize them as much. volume output and jumps will depend on a number of factors. Q, the magnets, the pickup heights.

can it work? yes! will you like it? depends! is it often more satisfying to have similar pickups all around? i think so but not always, volume jumps can serve a purpose, to push into slight overdrive on command comes to mind. the difference in tonality might be unsettling but it might also be exactly what you are looking for.

the multi volume setups are often less satisfying than you think, especially if the output is not balanced. some like to reverse the way the pots are wired to give better blending, this can give a noisy instrument at low volumes as well as a muddy sound at lowwer volumes and is why gibson didnt wire it that way. without the alternate(noisy) wireing dropping one volume drops both but at un even amounts. in this setup it is better to have ballanced pickups, the mixing effect is subtle and dual tones along with it can add slight texture to the sound otherwise not available. of coarse these are my preferences not rules of any kind.

dont be afraid of inbalance, magnets can be changed/spaced/whatever, but dont go overboard on a hot pup. overwound high inductance pups can get muddy sounding especially if you try to lower them or modify the magnets to achieve balance. it is easier to fatten up a pickup than to make it brighter, capacitors can work tonal wonders. a medium output humbucker like a paf is probably perfect but you may want to go slightly hotter or milder depending on taste.
 
Right now I'm thinking about Dimarzio's D Activator and an Area 67.

Knowing me thats subject to a million changes though.
 
AGWANANA-RAMA said:
Right now I'm thinking about Dimarzio's D Activator and an Area 67.

Knowing me thats subject to a million changes though.
Yep, soon, you'll end up with two Fender humbuckers mounted on a L5S-body. Of course, the L5S will be basswood with a poplar top, painted hot pink, and a maple stratocaster neck :icon_jokercolor:

That would have been SO fun to make :laughing11:
 
AGWANANA-RAMA said:
Right now I'm thinking about Dimarzio's D Activator and an Area 67.

Knowing me thats subject to a million changes though.

those output numbers are arbitrary power ratings. not the ohms. the bridge will need to be hotter than the neck, that's a given. now it depends on what that rating really means. if it is milivolts under controlled testing conditions it might not be as bad as it seems. that's less than 6db and the string amplitude in the different positions will make up for a bit of that. that is also a pickup that can be tweaked with a diferent magnet if you hate it. it could work. maybe not my choice but why not, the pups arent that expensive and you can exchange them. also the single (im assuming goes in the neck?) will have low pull so you can get it pretty close to the strings, just listen for stratitis when you adjust them.
 
AGWANANA-RAMA said:
My Luthier is not a fan of installing Pickups with different Outputs (lets say 140 Ohms neck, 470 Ohms bridge) and his reasons seem just. he says the Volume difference sounds horrid.

so when I do my tele. if I want HxS, can I fix this by replacing a Tone Pot with a second Volume? or would a capacitor level them out?

Any Ideas?

First off, as others have stated, the Ohm is NOT a measure of output. The Ohm is a measure of resistance. Output is measured in milliVolts. Look into Ohm's law. It does not work when you are trying to call resistance voltage.

Second, 140 and 470 ohms would indicate an EXTREMELY low impedance output for a pickup. The DC resistance of a coil with that much wire should be much higher unless you have like 10 coils running in parallel.

Third, why would you think that a capacitor would be the component to use to fix volume problems? :icon_scratch: A capacitor is an energy storage device which blocks DC and low frequencies. You commonly use capacitors in guitars as tone controls to ground the high frequencies. (Low pass filter.)

If you want, you could experiment with a trimmer pot mounted inside of the control cavity to attenuate the volume of one pickup. Make sure the wiper terminal goes to the output, not the pickup, to avoid the variable impedance loading effect you get when adjusting the volume if it's wired like a two-volume setup.
 
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