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Victor Wooten talks about music education, not note education

stubhead

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Mr. Wooten discusses the difference between learning vocabulary and learning music.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2zvjW9arAZ0

What does the world need with another good musician?

This whole "TED" thing looks interesting, with hugely varied response from the participants; an oblique angle of attack can be a good way of surprising yourself into learning.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hMy1pv3-tw4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RENk9PK06AQ

Etc. etc. etc. some of it is very oblique...

 
I really run hot and cold on the whole TED phenomenon.  On the one hand there are some really smart people who are sharing some really useful insights.  On the other, there are a bunch of self-proclaimed Thought Leaders who are using it to market the latest flavor of snake oil/business management fad/you name it, with a very First World "there's an app for that" sensibility.  I've stopped trying to separate the wheat from the chaff and begun ignoring TED links altogether when I encounter them - unless they are posted by someone whose independent intelligence I trust. 


Which means I'll check out the Wooten pieces, STubby, since yours is an intelligence I trust, at least when I can figure out what the eff you're talking about.
 
Another critique of TED delivered at a TED conference, no less:


http://boingboing.net/2014/01/08/a-ted-talk-about-whats-wrong.html

 
I don't know guys.

Music is, in the end, a highly formal art.

Most great music is not drowsily improvised, but carefully composed and intentionally designed to deliver, both harmonically and formally, a specific message and effect. Great compositions were also corrected and revised more than once.

It's a far cry from the hollywoodish idea of the moody composer improvising some stuff in which anything can happen.

I'm afraid that Victor here is unwillingly spreading this late-20th-century "idea" of the "inspired" artist.
That's what has allowed so many hipsters (the ones with an "art" gallery at their disposal at least) to literally sell junkbags as "art"pieces without even needing to know how to hold a pencil.

Yeah you gotta feel it man...
 
 
I'm with Edoardo on this one. Having some exposure to students with speech impediments and training programs for public speaking, I can say we actually do have to teach speech to children and to rise beyond a certain level of ability requires strict training, or else, why would we have so much money spent on speech coaches.  :dontknow:

I suspect Victor just re-discovered the perspective of natural learning, since he has been on a structured path for some years now. If you pressed him on it, I don't think he would completely disavow the need for structured music instruction. Either way, if he is true to the perspective he gives in this video, then I expect him to start actively making a lot of opportunities for total beginners to jam with him!!! :guitarplayer2:

More than anything, I think this TED video makes Bagman's point about TED videos. Here is a so called "expert" telling the world how it is! But, even though he is arguably one of the best bass players ever, that doesn't make him an expert on how best to teach / learn bass. And, what worked best for him may not necessarily work as well for others. I'm not opposed to natural learning, but this video could end up doing more harm than good if it convinces players there is no need for structured learning.  :dontknow:
 
I think you need a combination of natural learning and formal training. Whether that formal training is teacher student, or self didactically by a student using books and other media is still formal/informal learning.

One to the the detriment of the other would seem to be where the limitations are. Nurture and nature.
 
stratamania said:
I think you need a combination of natural learning and formal training. Whether that formal training is teacher student, or self didactically by a student using books and other media is still formal/informal learning.

One to the the detriment of the other would seem to be where the limitations are. Nurture and nature.

Very true. A student needs to accomplish some personal goals or there's no reward. As a teacher, you want to instill knowledge of music theory so there's a foundation to build on, but a student wants to play "Hot For Teacher" by VanHalen or the whole thing seems like a pointless waste of time. I've tried giving lessons more than once and failed every time by not keeping that in mind.
 
The real burning desire to be great isn't something teachable. I've read a fair number of interviews, and the people at the top of their field are, kinda like, insane. John Petrucci talks about his filing cabinet - he has a whole one just dedicated to lessons, ideas, columns in magazines. And every day when he's not on tour, he opens it up, and takes out four lessons or articles about four separate subjects. I don't remember exactly, but it's like a chord lesson, a speed lesson, some music theory, and something else. Then he goes through the lessons until he's mastered them. If it takes all day and night, oh well. And the next morning he does it again. And again, and again.

Allan Holdsworth has a really unique style, even bizarre. He sat down with a big stack of paper, and drew up every possible combination of of nine or less pitches within an octave, then he discarded the ones that had four notes all in a row, like D-Eb-E-F. And then he went to work on them. He says it took him about two years just to work out the fingerings and the chords built off of them, and another five years before he could play them all inside out, backwards etc.

I read an interview with John McLaughlin from the late 1980's, and he mentioned that the thing that bothers him the most about touring was that it interfered with his practicing and writing - what with all the airplanes and eating and stuff, he was lucky if he could "only" get in five or six hours of work a day. This is on top of playing the concerts! And, this is like after he invented fusion with Miles Davis and his own Mahavishnu Orchestra, invented world music with Shakti, after the the turbo-flamenco guitar trio with Paco DeLucia and Al DiMeola and after he'd written and recorded his first concerto for guitar and chamber orchestra.

No. You won't catch up. :laughing3: These guys, they don't have children, they don't take vacations - what ever for? :icon_biggrin: They want to play music.
 
Great examples Stubhead.

Petrucci is a good example of self didactic magazine learning nurturing his nature to put in the time.

I must admit I have a whole book case of magazines and books that are just guitar related, but these days I often just don't have the time to put in. But years ago I was doing easily 8 - 10 hours a day of playing etc.

You never stop learning if you play an instrument.  Or at least I don't think one should.
 
StübHead said:
The real burning desire to be great isn't something teachable. I've read a fair number of interviews, and the people at the top of their field are, kinda like, insane.

No kidding. It's almost a disease. Psychologists like to call it "obsessive-compulsive disorder" and psychiatrists will prescribe drugs for it. Been there, done that. It's fun, in a way. You get recognition, platitudes and all sorts of satisfaction out of the deal. But, in the end, at least for me, all you're doing is parroting what's already been done. Not really accomplishing anything. You're just a mime.

But, there are those who can create and they're the real heroes, and they're few and far between. Anybody can copy Joe Satriani or Paul McCartney if they work hard enough at it. But, very few can write like them. Almost nobody, really. That's why they get the big bucks.
 
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