Tuner confusion - what happened here?

WellGrounded

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8
Hope somebody reads this section.

I ordered a neck from Warmoth. Predictably, it's gorgeous, I'm very pleased with the neck itself.

However, since I had a set of Grover tuners on the shelf, I asked for the headstock to be bored per their sites "Gotoh/Grover" selection.

That seems to have been a mistake, but I'm not sure why.

The neck arrived Thursday, yesterday (Saturday) I got around to "try fitting" the tuners, and while the fit isn't horrible, they seem pretty loose, which doesn't seem a good idea for tuning stability. I wouldn't think you'd want them shifting around in their holes.

So, in trying to figure out what's going on, I went back to Warmoth's site to review the specs:

http://www.warmoth.com/guitar/necks/necks.cfm?fuseaction=tuners

Then to Grover's chart:

http://www.grotro.com/post_hole_sizes2.htm

The 102 model is by far the most common Grover tuner. I happen to have the 205 model, but it's the same spec.

The problem seems pretty clear- Grover's spec is 25/64". Warmoth's spec is 13/32", or 1/64" larger than Grover's. In fact, there isn't ANY model of Grover tuner that matches the 13/32" spec that the Warmoth page shows. No wonder they're loose.

Anyone know what's going on here? It's not the end of the world, but it looks like I won't be able to use my Grovers, or any Grovers, and I'm going to have to cough up for a set of Schallers to fit these bores properly. Nothing wrong with Schallers, but that's a bit of a disappointment, and an expense I hadn't counted on.
 
Hmm... I think you might be confused, because I sure am... these tuners have press-in bushings, right?  So the bushing is loose in the hole?  1/64 really wouldn't be noticeable, dude.  Did you forget to put the bushings in?  Because that would make it way too loose.

Sorry if I'm way off base here but I can't really picture what you're describing.    :help:
 
MINI ROTOMATICS® (205 SERIES)
0908_1spec.gif


Are these the ones you have?  Once the bushing is screwed in and the rear screw is attached, they should be fairly solid
 
Yeah, that's it..  or as near as I can tell, anyway.

If I torque down everything, yeah, I'm sure they're going to feel pretty solid. I'd still  rather they fit the holes snugly, though, so it wasn't just relying on nut tension to keep from shifting in there.


And, 1/64" is plenty to make a  difference on this size hole.
 
I see what you mean, Gotoh's specs are a little larger by 0.15 mm.  There's definitely a difference, but it should have no effect on tuning stability, etc.  Once completely installed they should work perfectly. 

OTOH You could use a thin layer of CA to build up the walls for the additional 1/64".   When its dry and cured it can be sanded and fit to perfection.
 
OTOH You could use a thin layer of CA to build up the walls for the additional 1/64".  When its dry and cured it can be sanded and fit to perfection.

In fact, are you going to finish the neck? I often find that after I lacquer/poly/whatever the neck, my tuners holes have gotten a little small and I have to enlarge them back out... I'm wondering if Warmoth slightly oversizes their holes to account for finishing? As Mr. 313 says, it's an easy process to tighten the holes a bit - the finishing lacquer if you're using it, superglue, epoxy.... if you're having a tech do anything he'd know, or if you buy THE BOOK* from Dan Erlewine that everyone ought to have before they so much as brush their teeth, it's in there.
A layer of toilet paper superglued to the sides adds a bit of bulk for the glue to hang onto - giggle if you wish but TP has rescued many a sitaring nut slot. :toothy11:


*(Guitar Player Repair Guide)
 
WellGrounded said:
dbw said:
these tuners have press-in bushings, right?

Not in this head, they aren't. Without torquing down the nuts, they're "drop in and watch them rattle around" bushings.

Okay, sorry I doubted you. :)
 
I deleted an expletive here, not sure what the standards of this board are in that regard.

I mis-read the chart anyway, according to the StewMac specs, Schallers are not going to be any tighter, their specs are the same as Grover's... but Warmoth bores differently, tighter for the Schallers? Very confusing.

Even the Gotoh models that I've checked out so far (4) say the shank is  9.91mm, the nut a nominal 10mm, the exact same as the Grovers I have.  Unless StewMac is making invalid assumptions...

Looks like the only one that might fit as intended in these holes are the Planet Waves, and I did NOT want Planet Waves.

I had thought of maybe shimming the holes with model-maker's brass tubing, which comes in a lot of pretty precise diameters... but I can't but feel that I shouldn't have to be doing this at all. I had this problem a few months ago, a guitar wouldn't hold tune. After removing the strings it was evident that the wood of the headstock had shrunk, and the bushing nuts were loose on two tuners, and the bushings themselves loose in the holes. Tightening fixed it, at least until next time.. but that whole guitar cost a lot less than this neck.

I hadn't really decided on the finish yet, but hadn't anticipated varnishing the inside of the tuner holes.

---------------------------------------------------

Later... yeah, this is ridiculous. According to StewMac, there's not a non-vintage-style tuner on earth that doesn't measure exactly 9.91mm at the shank, even the Planet Waves.... and yet Warmoth bores for vintage and three other sizes.  I need to find another source of specs.

 
Midsize 510's are 10.06mm.  Kind of ugly heads but great tuners.

Stubhead makes a good point. If the neck is still raw you have a lot more options. 

Was it a Warmoth neck that the wood shrunk on?  I may have heard some complaints about Warmoth, but not that one.  :dontknow:
 
Blue313 said:
Was it a Warmoth neck that the wood shrunk on?  I may have heard some complaints about Warmoth, but not that one.  :dontknow:

No, absolutely not, didn't mean to imply that. As I said, that whole guitar cost a lot less than this neck, it was a far-east import.
 
This is weird... Warmoth's largest bore is for the Planet Waves, but the spec sheet on those tuners ( .pdf at planetwaves.com) shows the shank at 9.52 mm, even smaller.

StewMac, predictably, shows the Planet Waves shank as 9.91mm, as it does almost all the others.

None of this makes sense.

 
Maybe I can put some rest to this.....

Older Grovers were made to fit in a .375 bored hole just fine.  Thats 3/8.

NEW Grovers are 10mm should fit in a 25/64 hole - .390  or a 10mm hole which is .394

All numbers rounded for ease.

Old Grovers have slotted screws of inch pattern thread, which hold on the knobs.

New Grovers have metric pattern thread on those same knobs and have Phillips heads.

Hope that helps.

BTW, old Grovers are becoming fairly collectible as tuners go.



 
Well, you seem to be saying that the old Grovers are smaller would be an even worse fit... which doesn't exactly explain why I asked for a headstock bored for Grovers, and got one that even the new ones are loose in.

We've seen that StewMac highly favors 9.91mm in their diagrams for the shank diameter (they don't really give bushing diameter), no matter what the manufacturer seems to think it is, and there seems to be no correlation I can find between manufacturer's specs and Warmoth's diagram.

With very little to go on, then, what I'm really looking for at this point is whether there are any tuners that really fit these holes, and if so, what they might be. 

How I ended up with them is another question, but I can't imagine an answer that would really be much help. I can say this- the next Warmoth neck I buy, I'm going to leave the holes "vintage" and ream them myself. It's a lot easier to make them bigger than smaller.

Thanks.
 
Volitions Advocate used Grovers on his dragonburst LP. Matbe he could shed some extra light on this too.

Brian
 
I took everything out last night and try-fitted again (I don't have immediate access to the parts where they're stored at the moment), and it's not really as bad as I remembered. I still don't know why they're as loose as they are, but it 's workable, they're not really flopping around in the holes, just loose. The top bushing actually fits better, it's the shank of the tuner body that's pretty loose in the back.Matter of expectation I guess, or maybe Warmoth is expecting a thick finish in the holes and just errs on the side of caution, dunno. The bushing seems to self-center to some degree when it's tightened down, so, probably it won't move, so long as it's remains torqued. 

I may still try another set of tuners to see if they're any better (I have a second project in embryonic stages of planning, they wouldn't go to waste), or maybe try the brass tubing shim.
 
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