titanium bridge plate

[Dan025]

i was poking around on the bill lawrence Wilde pickups site and he speaks about diferent bridge plat materials for a telecaster. many metals have a property that creates eddy currents. my understanding of eddy currents and other magnetic properties is limited at best but i do know that it has to do with a magnetic field having some resistance to moving through a metal object. eddy current brakes are used in modern rollercoasters and simply consist of copper plates that the magnets in the coaster pass over. the property can be demonstrated by holding up an aluminum or copper plate diagnally and letting a powerful magnet slide down it. the magnet is not attracted to the aluminum/copper but it will fall slower than a non metalic surface like plastic or glass. this is most clear with a thick section of aluminum and a strong magnet like used in a hard drive.

ok that was wordy so i'll get to the point. titanium has little eddy currents. i have tested it to make sure although not with any sensitive instrumentation i know it must be lower than most common choices. according to bill the eddy currents can kill highs, this is why covered pups sound diferent and why bill uses a chrome looking plastic cover. so i ask why do we put tele pup's in a steel or brass bridge and expose them to eddy currents? no eddy currents would allow more highs and therefore hotter pups to get the right balance and therefore more output to drive our amps.

i have some scrap pieces of titanium Ti 6Al 4V (although it is not sheet metal) that may be big enough to make a bridge plate and i can make saddles from brass or aluminum or hardened steel and plan to make one for myself.

i can maybe make a couple more if anyone is interested. i would offer them at a fair price as the metal was free but it will require time consuming work as this stuff is harder on tooling when cut manually and i dont have access to a cnc any longer.

 

[Dan025]

:dontknow: nobody?

 

[Cagey]

I've never paid that much attention to Telecasters in the past, although I'm starting to warm up to them these days. But, one thing I always wondered was why that huge bridge plate was there in the first place? The only purpose I could ever see for it was to provide a mounting scheme for the bridge/pickup cover that is almost universally removed.

If I'm right about the thing's raison d'être, then that says you don't need it at all. Just put a stop tailpiece and tunable bridge on the thing, and call it a love story. Forget the plate, and any ill effects it might have. That would also free you up to use a much wider variety of pickups, rather than the less common and unconventional tele pickups.

 

[Dan025]

well to be honest i can cut a tele bridge in half and mount the pup with plastic or wood or to the body and let the iron plate under it be visable. i guess i actually just thought it would be cool to show off a large chunk of titanium on my guitar. i am currently making payments on a used induma mill much like a bridgeport for this project and many others.

 

[Cagey]

well to be honest i can cut a tele bridge in half and mount the pup with plastic or wood or to the body and let the iron plate under it be visable. i guess i actually just thought it would be cool to show off a large chunk of titanium on my guitar. i am currently making payments on a used induma mill much like a bridgeport for this project and many others.

I'm a big fan of titanium myself, and understand your desire to show some off, especially if it lets you use a wicked new tool to create something unique <grin>

I imagine it might do something to the tone, but I can't predict what. Probably very little. Eddy currents wouldn't be an issue, as titanium is non-ferrous and almost non-conductive compared to most metals. Its conductivity is only 3% relative to copper. So, if you want to make a typical Tele bridge plate, it would be almost as if it weren't there as far as magnetic fields are concerned. I'm thinking that may brighten it up a bit, but I don't know. As if Teles need brightening... <grin>

 

[Dan025]

well i had a hot rails for tele in it and it needed brightening. not that it was an unusable tone i just want more balance between the neck and bridge pup's. ofcoarse i can go with a traditional bridge pup as the neck pup is not noiseless or just a not so hot noiseless one. like i said part of it is the need for an excuse to put a chunk of valuable precious metal on my guitar.

 

[Cagey]

Hot rails can be a little muddier than a traditional single coil, that's for sure. And as you say, not unusable, but perhaps not ideal for all applications. I do like the idea of a titanium bridge plate, so there's a vote if you need one. Hate to see that mill laying around doing nothing <grin>

Maybe you could start making nuts. Titanium is attractive, rigid, lightweight and smooth. I'd be interested in something like that. I have a need upcoming and usually use LSR nuts, but a solid chunk of titanium would probably work as well, and not be as shiny. Ideally, I'd like a gold (plated/colored) nut, but it doesn't look like I'm going to get that. Titanium would look good against an ebony 'board, though, without clashing with the rest of the gold hardware.

 

[Dan025]

i'm gald this is finally getting attention. about the nut's is brass close enough to gold for you? i may just do one or two in titanium, my tool and die maker friend is a wiz with oddball stuff and small features. a standard nut file may cut it if i dont work harden it too much in the machining process. if not diamond coating a couple feeler gages should do the trick. my friend has some stuff like that from when he had to make custom grinding wheels for carbide dies. or it can be a chance to learn how to use his EDM machines. i can grind carbide blades to various thicknesses to match the strings and sink the slots into the nut electronically. he has a wire EDM as well but it would be a project to get running.

 

[Cagey]

Brass would be acceptable color-wise, but it's a relatively soft metal. I don't mean soft like aluminum, but relative to titanium. Titanium is nice and slippery while still being wicked hard. Of course, you know this, being in the machining trade - the stuff doesn't want to cut, right? It self-lubricates the cutter. My concern with brass would be that it would wear too quickly, or develop striations or galls from string movement that would cause them to hang up. That's the nice thing about those little chromium balls in an LSR nut - they're not only harder than dammit so the strings won't affect them, they also rotate so stress doesn't build up.

But, maybe I'm worried about nothing. After all, most nuts are made of some variation/combination of plastic/ceramic/fiber/graphite, and there's no way any of that stuff is as hard as any metal.

I don't know if you need to get into EDM to play with brass - I knew a guy about 100 years ago who put brass nuts on a couple guitars, and I'm sure the guy he had do it didn't have that kind toy to play with. Titanium, I have no idea. It's not the kind of thing a lot of people get to play with <grin>

 

[Dan025]

well no need for special tool on brass, i was referring to Ti. it can be cut by conventional means if fully annealed although still hard and when hardened can be cut with care, grinding or filing usually work ok although grinding titanium is a good way to start a fire, in small amount it is flamable. EDM isn't necessary other than holes or other feature that can't be easily ground on carbides but does make deep features easier on many hard material. obviously a nut slot is not deep but i always like an excuse to try new things. EDM is also good for impossibly small features if the operator is clever and skilled enough.

ceramics can be harder than metals.

brass can wear but shouldn't have much friction. aluminum bronze is used on aircraft bushings and has a bit more wear resistance. beryllium copper is used as well and is even harder, especially when work hardened. i'm not sure where to source such materials right now as i no longer work with aircraft. the titanium was scrap and on it's way to being recycled. 

 

[-CB-]

Grinding Ti is also fairly toxic isn't it?

You can get stainless, aluminum or brass tele plates, never seen titanium

 

[Dan025]

Grinding Ti is also fairly toxic isn't it?

You can get stainless, aluminum or brass tele plates, never seen titanium

i'll bet it is. i have a respirator from my days of grinding and welding cracked cobalt alloy parts in the exhaust section of jet engines

 

[DangerousR6]

well no need for special tool on brass, i was referring to Ti. it can be cut by conventional means if fully annealed although still hard and when hardened can be cut with care, grinding or filing usually work ok although grinding titanium is a good way to start a fire, in small amount it is flamable. EDM isn't necessary other than holes or other feature that can't be easily ground on carbides but does make deep features easier on many hard material. obviously a nut slot is not deep but i always like an excuse to try new things. EDM is also good for impossibly small features if the operator is clever and skilled enough.

ceramics can be harder than metals.

brass can wear but shouldn't have much friction. aluminum bronze is used on aircraft bushings and has a bit more wear resistance. beryllium copper is used as well and is even harder, especially when work hardened. i'm not sure where to source such materials right now as i no longer work with aircraft. the titanium was scrap and on it's way to being recycled. 

Most people have a misconception when it comes to titanium and it being "hard" or "hardened". In reality titanium in it's purest form is soft, very soft. It has a hardness on the Rockwell scale of about 10-12 RC. So titanium is mixed with other metals to make a titanium alloy. And all the different grades of Ti will never get any harder than 40RC on the Rockwell scale. So in essence when "hardened" it's no harder than any type of raw tool steel, titanium alloys can be stress relieved and annealed, but high strength cannot be developed in these alloys by any type of heat treatment. So titanium is just as easy to machine as any other raw tool steel, only difference is that tool steels will work harden, titanium won't. Titanium actually galls the edges of the cutter and in turn material builds up on the edge of the cutter giving the perception of it work hardening but  doesn't actually work harden. Grinding Ti isn't toxic, but shavings are prone to ignite. As for Beryllium, beryllium is 98% copper and 2% beryllium, it will harden some but not work harden. But would be a 1000 times better for wear than brass. But it is toxic when welding grinding and machining.

 

[Dan025]

well thanks for the input, but some of my experience has been different, as far as Ti work hardening,  sure it doesn't work harden as easily as steals, it doesn't fatigue very easily and can even be used to make springs, though as valve springs in an engine won't last as long as steal ones so it does fatigue. now this is directly from my metallurgy and heat treat notes in the air force.
"pure titanium is in alpha phase below 1625 deg F, transforms to beta phase above 1625 deg F hardenable by cold working only. "
"Alpha alloys of titanium have stabilizers to maintain alpha phase above 1625 deg F, aluminum precipitant has strong hardening effect, hadenable by cold working only."
"beta alloys are stronger than alpha alloy at high tempstabilizers including hydrogen, manganese, chromium, molybdenum, iron, vanadium and columbium maintan beta phase below 1625 deg F hardenable by heat treat as well as cold working."
i seem to remember something about alpha/beta alloys but i cant find thqat page in my notes at this time.

many of the parts i made for the airforce were cracked do to fatigue not over loading or other damage.

to explain alpha phase vs beta phase;  in alpha phase titanium has a crystalline structure(not to be confused with grain structure) that is 17 hcp or hexagonal close packed and is represented by two hexagons of atoms with a 7th in the center of each on a flat plane and a triangle of 3 atoms seperating the two hexagons

in beta phase it takes on a 9 bcc or body centered cubic shape. represented by 8 atoms forming a cube and one in the center of the cube. this resembles steel or .2% or lower

as for the work hardening it has been taught to me by my school in the air force that all metals wil work harden if that is inaccurate can you site the information contrary to it?

now as for "as easy to cut as machine as raw tool steel" i can tell you that this is not true. hardness and machinability are not one in the same. titanium is almost "spongy" it compresses and deflects under cutting forces. it is difficult to form a clean chip and requires sharp tooling. climb milling is best because the cutting edge contacts the material at a steeper angle, and like aluminum the oversteps and depths of cut should be as large as the cutter will tolerate. taking the safe approach can be a disaster. features that require end mill 1/8th in or smaller are particularly difficult to cut especially if the chips aren't cleared from the cutters path well enough. but i will say once the conditions are right you can achieve quick progress with titanium.

these conditions don't exist in drilling or lathe work as the chips are continuous. it can be turned or drilled as easy as or easier than most steal alloys. 

berilium copper is very hardenable by cold woking and some form of cold working procedure was a part of all berilium copper bushing installations that i preformed, it was never simply press fit. it ocasionally cracked in the process.

 

[DangerousR6]

"now as for "as easy to cut as machine as raw tool steel" i can tell you that this is not true. hardness and machinability are not one in the same. titanium is almost "spongy" it compresses and deflects under cutting forces. it is difficult to form a clean chip and requires sharp tooling. climb milling is best because the cutting edge contacts the material at a steeper angle, and like aluminum the oversteps and depths of cut should be as large as the cutter will tolerate. taking the safe approach can be a disaster. features that require end mill 1/8th in or smaller are particularly difficult to cut especially if the chips aren't cleared from the cutters path well enough. but i will say once the conditions are right you can achieve quick progress with titanium."

True, hardness and machine ability are not the same, however they do go hand in hand when it comes to machine ability of particular metals. So what I meant was that most tool steels such as A2, A6, S7 are around 36-40 RC on the Rockwell scale, and none of the alpha titanium ever gets harder than 40 RC. So it's really no different than those types of steels in which I use all the time in tool and die making, although there are a few more rules involved in machining titanium, that are usually not present in tool steels. And in reality all metal will deflect when machining, depending on the material and the sharpness of the cutting tool. And as far as sighting my info, it's all based on experience, I'm usually making titanium parts on a daily basis.

 

[Dan025]

fair nuff. experience is good and if you are doing everything right you wont see complications. so you clearly are cutting it right.
education is also good but sometimes some miss education works it's way into the system, it wasn't a challenge, really i thought you might have a link to an interesting article or something. for instance one of the slides on titanium in my classes claimed it becomes magnetic when heated to beta phase. i can't find supporting documents behind it. i can find things that seem to point to it being possible but not the information that puts it all together and i lack the knowledge to interpret some of these articles, i've asked people but not many are versed in the spooky physics of magnetism, so i wonder if that was the writing of some long gone retired instructor who thought he knew a thing or two or if it came from a valid and knowledgeable source.

personal experience welding the stuff says maybe, the rod will easily fuse to the plate even if not totally liquefied i know that has zero to do with magnetism, my point is it is annoying as hell and you must do your best to not touch the plate with the rod 'cept for the the puddle and that seems way harder to do on Ti than any other metal, the rod always finds it's way to the plate and i can't tell if it's a mental thing, i tell myself "don't touch the plate" so naturally it happens, or if the rod is drawn to the plate magnetically, i always use a high rod to plate angle to prevent this. i find it is easier not to touch if i poke the rod into the puddle.

 

[DangerousR6]

fair nuff. experience is good and if you are doing everything right you wont see complications. so you clearly are cutting it right.
education is also good but sometimes some miss education works it's way into the system, it wasn't a challenge, really i thought you might have a link to an interesting article or something. for instance one of the slides on titanium in my classes claimed it becomes magnetic when heated to beta phase. i can't find supporting documents behind it. i can find things that seem to point to it being possible but not the information that puts it all together and i lack the knowledge to interpret some of these articles, i've asked people but not many are versed in the spooky physics of magnetism, so i wonder if that was the writing of some long gone retired instructor who thought he knew a thing or two or if it came from a valid and knowledgeable source.

personal experience welding the stuff says maybe, the rod will easily fuse to the plate even if not totally liquefied i know that has zero to do with magnetism, my point is it is annoying as hell and you must do your best to not touch the plate with the rod 'cept for the the puddle and that seems way harder to do on Ti than any other metal, the rod always finds it's way to the plate and i can't tell if it's a mental thing, i tell myself "don't touch the plate" so naturally it happens, or if the rod is drawn to the plate magnetically, i always use a high rod to plate angle to prevent this. i find it is easier not to touch if i poke the rod into the puddle.

Most of what I know is from reading metallurgy books on different materials and my machining experience with it. Oddly enough, never thought about internet references. And I wasn't taking it as a challenge... :icon_biggrin: I've not know of any of the alpha ti to be magnetic, though I have heard of that the beta's are more usable for welding, thus more susceptible to magnetism..  But as I've had no experience with beta's or welding Ti, I really don't know that.... :dontknow:

 

[Super Turbo Deluxe Custom]

While I'm no Tele purist, I would call myself a Tele traditionalist.  Please don't ask for an explanation or the difference....I know what I mean, lol.  I read up a little on the Tele bridge plate materials relating to Eddy Currents.  It seems to me it's much ado about nothing....or much ado about the neglible...or much ado about something that I couldn't imagine anyother way.  Eddy currents can cut output and some highs, but Tele bridge pickups ain't exactly known for their warmth to begin with.  How bright would they be w/out it?  If worried about loss of output or lack of highs, install a 500K pot on an overwound pickup.  It seems every solution creates another problem.

That whole 1st paragraph aside, I love tinkering and am always curious about a bigger better mousetrap and fixing things that ain't broke.  This thread has my curiousity sparked!  I can't wait to see and hear about the finished product.     

 

[Dan025]

While I'm no Tele purist, I would call myself a Tele traditionalist.  Please don't ask for an explanation or the difference....I know what I mean, lol.  I read up a little on the Tele bridge plate materials relating to Eddy Currents.  It seems to me it's much ado about nothing....or much ado about the neglible...or much ado about something that I couldn't imagine anyother way.  Eddy currents can cut output and some highs, but Tele bridge pickups ain't exactly known for their warmth to begin with.  How bright would they be w/out it?  If worried about loss of output or lack of highs, install a 500K pot on an overwound pickup.  It seems every solution creates another problem.

That whole 1st paragraph aside, I love tinkering and am always curious about a bigger better mousetrap and fixing things that ain't broke.  This thread has my curiousity sparked!  I can't wait to see and hear about the finished product.     

well it's not happening overnight i can tell you that. i do have the material and will soon have the machines but who knows what problems i'll encounter, what i might not be clear is that i need to turn a large block into a thin plate, and like i said i get the best result climb milling(the part moves in the same direction as the flutes of the cutter so the cutter is climbing the part drawing it in), what other machinist will know is that is a great way to break an endmill on a manual machine as it will draw the table towards the cutter and the cutter will basically bite off more than it can chew. the block is Ti 6Al 4V and is tough not as hard as some stainless steels i've worked with but just tough. CNC can climb mill no problem because the lead screw has next to no backlash.

doug i am sometimes worried that i come off as condescending and argumentative, i never know if someone thinks i'm informative or just an @$$. the magnetism thing is just to point out that i don't trust every bit of info that i "learned"  and am willing to listen to others with experience especially those with more than me. but it is also an interesting topic though it has nothing to do with guitars.
i can find that titanium isotopes do have "spin" a property having to do with the arrangement and direction of electrons spinning in an atom and is responsible for magnetism i'd imagine that the amount of these isotopes is low in any given piece of Ti. i can't find info on any Ti compounds or effect of crystaline structure that effects spin just that isotopes of Ti have it. i don't think simply heating it will cause new neutrons to appear in the atom, but i have little understanding of such things.
i can say that if the rod is just the right distance from the arc it will start vibrating at the end i don't know if it is due to heat fluctuations in the rod or an ionic attraction or magnetic or what. if it is known to be magnetic when heated to beta phase why can't i find scientific data supporting it?  :dontknow:

as far as what you said about Ti being easy to cut, i just started a job making orthopedic implants(started yesterday infact), just an operator here, but hey it's a job. prior to now i had none, they use what appears to be alpha Ti, it is lighter in color and less blue looking than what i'm used to. the milling operations seem to go smoothly and the endmills last many many runs, at first i didn't know what the material was but the familiar white sparks gave it away when de-burring. it does seem that alpha Ti is quite easy to cut. our experience and background is different leading us to different conclusions.  ccasion14:

 

[DangerousR6]

While I'm no Tele purist, I would call myself a Tele traditionalist.  Please don't ask for an explanation or the difference....I know what I mean, lol.  I read up a little on the Tele bridge plate materials relating to Eddy Currents.  It seems to me it's much ado about nothing....or much ado about the neglible...or much ado about something that I couldn't imagine anyother way.  Eddy currents can cut output and some highs, but Tele bridge pickups ain't exactly known for their warmth to begin with.  How bright would they be w/out it?  If worried about loss of output or lack of highs, install a 500K pot on an overwound pickup.  It seems every solution creates another problem.

That whole 1st paragraph aside, I love tinkering and am always curious about a bigger better mousetrap and fixing things that ain't broke.  This thread has my curiousity sparked!  I can't wait to see and hear about the finished product.     

well it's not happening overnight i can tell you that. i do have the material and will soon have the machines but who knows what problems i'll encounter, what i might not be clear is that i need to turn a large block into a thin plate, and like i said i get the best result climb milling(the part moves in the same direction as the flutes of the cutter so the cutter is climbing the part drawing it in), what other machinist will know is that is a great way to break an endmill on a manual machine as it will draw the table towards the cutter and the cutter will basically bite off more than it can chew. the block is Ti 6Al 4V and is tough not as hard as some stainless steels i've worked with but just tough. CNC can climb mill no problem because the lead screw has next to no backlash.

doug i am sometimes worried that i come off as condescending and argumentative, i never know if someone thinks i'm informative or just an @$$. the magnetism thing is just to point out that i don't trust every bit of info that i "learned"  and am willing to listen to others with experience especially those with more than me. but it is also an interesting topic though it has nothing to do with guitars.
i can find that titanium isotopes do have "spin" a property having to do with the arrangement and direction of electrons spinning in an atom and is responsible for magnetism i'd imagine that the amount of these isotopes is low in any given piece of Ti. i can't find info on any Ti compounds or effect of crystaline structure that effects spin just that isotopes of Ti have it. i don't think simply heating it will cause new neutrons to appear in the atom, but i have little understanding of such things.
i can say that if the rod is just the right distance from the arc it will start vibrating at the end i don't know if it is due to heat fluctuations in the rod or an ionic attraction or magnetic or what. if it is known to be magnetic when heated to beta phase why can't i find scientific data supporting it?  :dontknow:

as far as what you said about Ti being easy to cut, i just started a job making orthopedic implants(started yesterday infact), just an operator here, but hey it's a job. prior to now i had none, they use what appears to be alpha Ti, it is lighter in color and less blue looking than what i'm used to. the milling operations seem to go smoothly and the endmills last many many runs, at first i didn't know what the material was but the familiar white sparks gave it away when de-burring. it does seem that alpha Ti is quite easy to cut. our experience and background is different leading us to different conclusions.   ccasion14:

No condescending or augmentative feelings at all. As you mention, backgrounds and experiences give people different views and learnings. Good to hear of your new endevors... :icon_thumright: