Tell me about wireless

[drewski]

Hi Guys

I am currently in the market for a guitar wireless system. (walkabout sound check / one less cable to be tied to/ trip over/ spill a drink with is ok in my book.)

I am barley a notch over a hobbyist gig-er. I realize wireless systems in general get a bad rap off the get go as far as being tone killing, hard to deal with, blah blah, and im sure there are some real cheap garbage systems that do just that, but also don't want to spend one or two grand on a system.

I have my heart currently set on the Line 6 g50 system. It seemed a little more robust than the g30 system, I like the stompbox sized receiver, the digital display on the beltpack (with a mute button!), I have often been impressed with other Line 6 gear.

But I am wary regardless. I need to visit one of the big box music stores and see if I can even demo one of these things (although I suppose the point is moot until I play with it for an extended period of time through my own guitars and amp, I often find with any toy I add to the system) but anything you fine folks can add is as always greatly appreciated. I know some of the other manufacturers have their own offerings (including what I believe to be a new offering from Shure with a stompbox tuner/receiver) and I am by no means married to Line 6 (unless they want to start donating their gear to my cause out of the goodness of their hearts)

All input appreciated!  :sign13: ccasion14:

 

[Cagey]

My understanding is there's the Line 6 G series, then there's everything else. I've been lusting after one myself, but having a hard time justifying it.

The only downside I'm aware of with them is the transmitters are power-hungry. Make sure you have plenty of spare batteries available, and don't leave the thing on if you're not using it. Also, because they're sensitive to the power level, rechargeables aren't really an option. So, find a deal site where you can buy batteries by the boxload.

But, clarity, dynamic range, frequency response, noise rejection, range, everything is as good or better than a cord. In fact, then have compensation adjustments available to degrade their performance a bit so it sounds like you're corded.

 

[drewski]

Ah you rock Cagey. I gathered that the L6 stuff was good and I do quite a bit of reading on the stuff but who knows. And internet reviews are hit or miss, including the psychological fallacy that different = bad its easy to be mislead by someones review that "THIS TOTALLY KILLED MY TONE" while it probably does make an impact on the overall sound, theres a lot of knobs on these amps to adjust things.

 

[Cagey]

Many wireless units will have an effect on your tone, which is why you hear complaints and wireless is generally thought to be a compromise. Since day one, they've run in the Khz radio range, so you lost frequency response and dynamic range and may suffer dropouts. Plus, they've always shared bandwidth with other devices, so you risked interference. The Line 6 units run in the Ghz range, so all those problems go away.

I don't know why nobody else is doing them that way yet. Perhaps Line 6 managed to get a patent or something.

 

[swarfrat]

Sennheiser made a Ghz range frequency hopping digital wireless a few years ago, since discontinued. That was the first I recall reading about wireless that didn't suck.  Something I've always pondered...

So you got a wireless for your guitar. Now you need another one for your IEMs. And if you're singing and playing guitar you need a 2nd channel. So that's two transmitters and a receiver. Seems like a product opportunity to me.

 

[drewski]

I had always wondered how the major tour equipment handled this with a ton of wireless transmitters for guitars, mics, monitors, and stages that allow you to run a quarter of a mile out into the audience and plenty of spares for redundancy....but I suppose the L6 will do me ok for the local watering hole

 

[NLD09]

I gig regularly with the G50 and love it. I've never had it cut out on me or had any issues, aside from the time our singer and I accidentally set his mic and my guitar to the same channel. That was interesting.  :doh:

In regards to sound, I can't hear much of a difference and the cable length simulator works as advertised.

My only complaint is that the provided cable is nowhere near long enough for my use. It may or may not be an issue for you. I ordered a longer one on Ebay. I also plan on buying a protective pouch for it sometime in the future.

 

[AndyG]

The only downside I'm aware of with them is the transmitters are power-hungry. Make sure you have plenty of spare batteries available, and don't leave the thing on if you're not using it. Also, because they're sensitive to the power level, rechargeables aren't really an option. So, find a deal site where you can buy batteries by the boxload.

I've used a lot of wireless equipment over the years, and I would never recommend using rechargable batteries.  It's not so much that the transmitters are power-hungry (although some are), it is the "discharge curve" associated with rechargables.  Alkaline batteries seem to discharge in more of a "linear" fashion, whereas most rechargables (9 volts, anyway), go from 100%, to 90%, to 80%, then suddenly down to 30%.  With regular alkalines, there will be a warning of some kind (intermittent signal loss or mild signal distortion) letting you know your batteries are about to go.  With rechargables, the signal will be there, and then it's gone!

 

[Cagey]

Not only that, but single cell rechargeables are only 1.2vdc, while Alkalines are 1.5vdc and some devices are sensitive to that. For instance, my camera won't focus up close worth a damn if I put rechargeables in it, and in regular work it only lasts about 50 shots before the camera thinks the batteries need replacement. Put Alkalines in there, and it's fine all around and will go several hundred shots.

 

[TBurst Std]

The LIne 6 Relays are the item, but as Cagey noted, power hungry. I have the previous series, XDR, and it sounds great. I don't use it unless I have to due to the 4 hr battery life.

 

[croquet hoop]

There are some kind of rechargeable batteries (the LDR NiMH, low discharge rate type) that do not suffer from these problems. I've been using those mentioned in the wikipedia article for several years in different applications and never had a problem. I think it's a good solution to avoid buying (and having to dispose of...) alkaline cells by the load.

 

[SustainerPlayer]

Al respect for the Line 6 units. But I would go for the Shure GLXD16.

Same price range. Almost same specs. But the receiver can replace your tuner on the board (built in tuner). Check it out.

 

[drewski]

I gig regularly with the G50 and love it. I've never had it cut out on me or had any issues, aside from the time our singer and I accidentally set his mic and my guitar to the same channel. That was interesting.  :doh:

In regards to sound, I can't hear much of a difference and the cable length simulator works as advertised.

My only complaint is that the provided cable is nowhere near long enough for my use. It may or may not be an issue for you. I ordered a longer one on Ebay. I also plan on buying a protective pouch for it sometime in the future.

:icon_thumright:

that's a 4 pin cable to go into the transmitter? I try to keep spares of everything so I will need another one for sure although I noted some of the offerings on ebay were quite ridiculous.

 

[drewski]

Al respect for the Line 6 units. But I would go for the Shure GLXD16.

Same price range. Almost same specs. But the receiver can replace your tuner on the board (built in tuner). Check it out.

this is on my radar but the rechargeable beltpack both intrigues (no AAs!) and worries (degradation over battery life) me. And I use my pod as a tuner and some FX so the integrated tuner really wouldn't replace anything on my board. 

 

[Cagey]

If the thing is designed to work with rechargeable batteries, then it's tolerant of lower voltages. Rechargeables start off at a lower voltage than disposables, so they seem to die early when they really don't. It's just that the circuits that depend on them think they're dead when they're not. The other thing is rechargeables will self-discharge, so you can't leave them unused like you can with disposables. They'll die on their own without any use at all, some faster than others. NiCads are famous for it, NiMH not so much, and lithiums hold on pretty good, but still do it. An Alkaline can typically sit on the shelf for years and still be good.

Sanyo and a couple others are offering what they call "pre-charged" batteries now that are rechargeable, but they have a different chemistry that allows them to sit unused and maintain a charge. Those are the ones to have. Takes a different charger, but the overall cost is not much more than what you'd normally pay for NiMH and charger setups. See here

 

[swarfrat]

The rechargable thing is getting better - mostly because of advances in power management ic's and teeny tiny drop in switching power supplies. Many of the latest ones can wring every last drop out of any battery down to the preprogammed cutoff (to avoid killing certain types of rechargables), and do it with 90+% efficiency.

 

[drewski]

If the thing is designed to work with rechargeable batteries, then it's tolerant of lower voltages. Rechargeables start off at a lower voltage than disposables, so they seem to die early when they really don't. It's just that the circuits that depend on them think they're dead when they're not. The other thing is rechargeables will self-discharge, so you can't leave them unused like you can with disposables. They'll die on their own without any use at all, some faster than others. NiCads are famous for it, NiMH not so much, and lithiums hold on pretty good, but still do it. An Alkaline can typically sit on the shelf for years and still be good.

Sanyo and a couple others are offering what they call "pre-charged" batteries now that are rechargeable, but they have a different chemistry that allows them to sit unused and maintain a charge. Those are the ones to have. Takes a different charger, but the overall cost is not much more than what you'd normally pay for NiMH and charger setups. See here

yeh its just the batteries eventual slow death that has me wondering. Allthough it seems Shure sells drop in replacements for that new transmitter when they do eventually decide to not hold a charge anymore. But I know ill be able to get plain old AAs even 10 years from now.

 

[Cagey]

But I know ill be able to get plain old AAs even 10 years from now.

Right. And you don't have to pay through the nose to get them. I buy them by the 24 pack and often get them as low as $11 for copper top Duracells, which are about the best you can get. You just have to search the deal sites. They're only offered occasionally, so you have to strike while the iron's hot. But, shelf life on them is pretty long, so there's little risk to stocking up.

 

[drewski]

I gig regularly with the G50 and love it. I've never had it cut out on me or had any issues, aside from the time our singer and I accidentally set his mic and my guitar to the same channel. That was interesting.  :doh:

In regards to sound, I can't hear much of a difference and the cable length simulator works as advertised.

My only complaint is that the provided cable is nowhere near long enough for my use. It may or may not be an issue for you. I ordered a longer one on Ebay. I also plan on buying a protective pouch for it sometime in the future.

I forgot to ask....I assume a brand new pair of batteries gets you thru a night no problem?

 

[NLD09]

that's a 4 pin cable to go into the transmitter? I try to keep spares of everything so I will need another one for sure although I noted some of the offerings on ebay were quite ridiculous.

I forgot to ask....I assume a brand new pair of batteries gets you thru a night no problem?

That's the one. Lava cable makes a coiled one as well which I think is pretty cool.

Yes, a fresh set of batteries gets me through a show.