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Short Scale bass build...need pickup advice

dmraco

Master Member
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I am starting a short scale bass build and need advice from the bass players here.

I am really not sure how to wire this thing.  I am hoping to use Music Man pickups.  What are the pros and cons of using a powered pre-amp?

should I use a pre-amp?  What will be lost if I do not?

I am considering either the music man or Duncan models...


Cheers!!
 
I have basses with and without pre-amps , it really comes down to how much on board control you want.  If you want the most headroom I'd suggest an 18v system .  I've used both Bartolini and Carvin , both have worked well.
 
it sorta depends what sound you're looking for, and what the bass will be used for. I, personally, have never found any use for active basses, nor do I really like the sound of any of them. but people seem to use them for making tonal adjustments live without having to go back to their amp. I barely use the tone knob on my bass, so that shows you how much I don't bother with that stuff when I'm playing. I find my tone, and I leave it for the whole show. if it's a studio bass, it may be sort of a moot point as you can adjust amps and all different kinds of EQ to tweak you're sound. if you're just a knob tweaker by nature, I figure an active EQ is for you. if you're not that fiddly, then passive will work just well, too.

what sort of sound are you wanting, btw? I'd go to guitar center, or something, and test out different basses with different pickups. I've always found the musicman basses too honky for my tastes, but others swear by it. a good thing is to find a single amp, leave the EQ flat, and just start plugging different basses into it to find out what you like. or you could sort of do a best of everything, and get a p pickup mounted in the sweet spot, and have an MM pickup a little closer to the bridge with a coil tap to get you close to a j-bass sound, if necessary.
 
I was considering either a MM in the sweet spot ...OR....  a music man in the bridge and J bass in the neck.  Running a toggle and a volume and tone for each PU.
 
maybe you could go with a single coil P-bass pickup in the middle...I'm just thinking about aural versatility. it'd be a bass that could do 2 or 3 different things.
 
that is an option. 

The bass will mostly be used for eith Jazz and Rock by my son.  He currently has and Ibanez SR700 5 string and a  4 string Warwick with two MEC pickups that are SUPER HOT!  He has always wanted a short scale and i am looking to coax some different tone...hence the music man PU.

Going to finish it in Pelham blue nitro..... :headbang1:
GIBSON_EB11_PELHAMBLUE.jpg
 
What's funny is that I was going to suggest the pictured pickup combination.  I know it's odd, but you can get some usable tones out of those pickups, and it's hard to get a bad one.  If you were doing punk or funk, I'd suggest MM, P or J.  I personally can't abide too many pickups, so I appreciate your looking for one.  I'd still suggest that EBO style setup for rock and jazz, because you do need *some* versatility. 

If you're really set on one pickup, as much as I love P pickup, a Classic Bart soapbar in the sweetspot is how I'd do it.  No active controls, just volume and tone knobs (I do use a tone knob to roll off slightly because I keep my tone bright out of the box). 

-Mark
 
That photo was just for color...have ever I do love that bass.

I spoke to Wylie...I think I am going to go with a Music Man in the bridge and Jazz in the neck.  I may to the 2 vol and 2 tone with a toggle If I can squeeze it in the cavity.  If not...1 vol and two tone.....one toggle.
 
Note that a large part of the MusicMan sound comes from the preamp. MM preamps are not transparent, but rather, they impart their own voicing on the pickup. This makes up for the inherent problems of running two low impedance coils in parallel. It can be noted however, that many modern pickups in the MM pickup casing are not wound in the traditional fashion. From what I hear, there are many higher impedance pickups voiced for series operation.

Preamps can offer five advantages over passive systems.
First off, input impedance is constant. This means that changes throughout the circuit, such as plugging into different amps, will not affect the resonant circuit of the pickup coil.
Second, output impedance is lowered. This can be advantageous, because as the resistive component of the output impedance is lowered, the frequency cutoff of the filter formed by the parasitic capacitance of your guitar cable increases, giving you less "tone suck" from the cable.
Third, many (but not all) preamps provide some form on onboard EQ. This can be useful for tone shaping. You can do the same thing from other gear elsewhere in the rig, but many find it convenient to have the controls right on their bass.
Fourth, some (but not all) preamps provide a gain boost. While it is always important to consider your gain structure throughout the rig, and find the balance between the SNR/headroom and high output, it can be desirable to boost the gain of some pickups.
Fifth, though it's a rarity with most commercially available preamps, some provide multiple buffered inputs. This is useful for a variety of purposes, such as independent control over pickups, and output level-matching.

Preamps also have their disadvantages.
First off, though I find it absurd, myself, a great number of bass players tend to freak out over batteries. A properly wired preamp draws between hundreds of microAmps and a few milliAmps, which yields quite a bit of battery life, but nonetheless, there is always the thought that something could go wrong and leave you with a dead battery.
Second, since the input impedance remains constant and the output impedance is lowered, the tone is often a bit brighter than in a passive setup. Many people attribute this to some sort of "active sound," but in many cases it's simply the nature of the the wiring, and can be compensated, to a degree, to produce a more "passive" sound. If the pickups feed into the preamp with a minimum of resistive loading, you can add resistors to simulate pots in a passive system. You can run a small value capacitor across the input stage to simulate cable capacitance, as well. If the bass is still too hi-fi and sterile for your taste, you might consider a more darkly voiced preamp.
Third, there are theoretical concerns over the headroom and SNR by adding gain stages to your circuit. This really isn't a big deal to most people, as you usually can't even hear the difference.

Note that a bass can be wired for both active and passive operation, by keeping controls of an appropriate value for the pickups' output impedance before the input of the preamp, and then switching the preamp in and out of the circuit. This is my personal preference, and it's what I would do in this case. You get the best of both worlds.
 
DMRACO said:
Ok...if I decide to use a pre-amp with the duncan pickups...here is a diagram.  If I where to incorporate a Jazz bass pickup...where would that go? Could I use a three way toggle?

Also...what does the push-pull on the volume do??

http://www.seymourduncan.com/images/products/basslines/501040-110.pdf

There are many ways to do it. Two volumes, volume and blend, pickup selector, two volumes and a pickup selector, etc. Note, however, that there are likely to be impedance differences between the two types of pickups, which would lend to noticeable insertion loss issues with multiple volumes or a blend. I would personally stick to a pickup selector and master volume.

The pot appears to be some sort of frequency adjust for the treble pot.
 
line6man said:
DMRACO said:
Ok...if I decide to use a pre-amp with the duncan pickups...here is a diagram.  If I where to incorporate a Jazz bass pickup...where would that go? Could I use a three way toggle?

Also...what does the push-pull on the volume do??

http://www.seymourduncan.com/images/products/basslines/501040-110.pdf

There are many ways to do it. Two volumes, volume and blend, pickup selector, two volumes and a pickup selector, etc. Note, however, that there are likely to be impedance differences between the two types of pickups, which would lend to noticeable insertion loss issues with multiple volumes or a blend. I would personally stick to a pickup selector and master volume.

The pot appears to be some sort of frequency adjust for the treble pot.

using the attached PDF...where would I insert the three way and j bass into the mix?  Sorry...I am an idiot when it comes to wires.  IF it is not drawn out...I cannot figure it out.
 
DMRACO said:
line6man said:
DMRACO said:
Ok...if I decide to use a pre-amp with the duncan pickups...here is a diagram.  If I where to incorporate a Jazz bass pickup...where would that go? Could I use a three way toggle?

Also...what does the push-pull on the volume do??

http://www.seymourduncan.com/images/products/basslines/501040-110.pdf

There are many ways to do it. Two volumes, volume and blend, pickup selector, two volumes and a pickup selector, etc. Note, however, that there are likely to be impedance differences between the two types of pickups, which would lend to noticeable insertion loss issues with multiple volumes or a blend. I would personally stick to a pickup selector and master volume.

The pot appears to be some sort of frequency adjust for the treble pot.

using the attached PDF...where would I insert the three way and j bass into the mix?  Sorry...I am an idiot when it comes to wires.  IF it is not drawn out...I cannot figure it out.

You can see a "grey (input to preamp)" wire in the diagram. This is where the pickup selector will output.
 
I'd advise against 2 tones just because, when in the middle position, either one effects both pickups.  Whereas, depending how wired, the volumes should only effect the pickup it's designated to effect.  And, if using an onboard preamp, there is no "tone" to cut, as with active circuits, you can boost as well as cut.  And with many newer 2 and 3 band preamps, when set flat, they boast about transparency.  Ideally, a good preamp on the amplifier should allow any corrections.  It's just a matter of if you want the adjustment on the bass or the amp, and the realisation that some preamps aren't transparent.
 
line6man said:
DMRACO said:
line6man said:
DMRACO said:
Ok...if I decide to use a pre-amp with the duncan pickups...here is a diagram.  If I where to incorporate a Jazz bass pickup...where would that go? Could I use a three way toggle?

Also...what does the push-pull on the volume do??

http://www.seymourduncan.com/images/products/basslines/501040-110.pdf

There are many ways to do it. Two volumes, volume and blend, pickup selector, two volumes and a pickup selector, etc. Note, however, that there are likely to be impedance differences between the two types of pickups, which would lend to noticeable insertion loss issues with multiple volumes or a blend. I would personally stick to a pickup selector and master volume.

The pot appears to be some sort of frequency adjust for the treble pot.

using the attached PDF...where would I insert the three way and j bass into the mix?  Sorry...I am an idiot when it comes to wires.  IF it is not drawn out...I cannot figure it out.

You can see a "grey (input to preamp)" wire in the diagram. This is where the pickup selector will output.

So the red and black from the pickup go to the selector (same from the other pu)
And the grey will connect the preamp and selector
 
Super Turbo Deluxe Custom said:
I'd advise against 2 tones just because, when in the middle position, either one effects both pickups.  Whereas, depending how wired, the volumes should only effect the pickup it's designated to effect.  And, if using an onboard preamp, there is no "tone" to cut, as with active circuits, you can boost as well as cut.  And with many newer 2 and 3 band preamps, when set flat, they boast about transparency.  Ideally, a good preamp on the amplifier should allow any corrections.  It's just a matter of if you want the adjustment on the bass or the amp, and the realisation that some preamps aren't transparent.

If I use the pre amp...it will have a bass, mid and treble.  If I decide not to use it...the wiring would be similar to a lp.

I think the deciding factor will be hearing the difference.  I may just add a battery box to the build just in case.
 
The '62 Jazz Bass had 2 volumes and 2 tones.  They no longer do that except for year specific/nostalgia reissues.  Google or ask around why that format was abandoned.
 
Super Turbo Deluxe Custom said:
The '62 Jazz Bass had 2 volumes and 2 tones.  They no longer do that except for year specific/nostalgia reissues.  Google or ask around why that format was abandoned.

The problem with the two tones setup is that pickups run directly parallel when their volumes are both up, which makes the tone pots also run parallel to each other. If you run both pickups at full volume, both tones act as masters. The only way around this, in the passive realm, is to use fixed resistors in series with the output of each volume/tone, as early Jazz basses did. This increases the resistance between each tone pot and the other pickup, so that they can remain independent. The drawback, however, is that the resistors reduce the output from the pickups before they even hit the output jack. The stacked Jazz bass setup in both forms did not last for very long before players came to prefer the standard VVT layout that is commonplace today. Typically the only time you will see basses with two tone pots is when there is a pickup selector switch onboard, which allows the tones to work as "presets" for each pickup, when you solo them.
 
DMRACO said:
So the red and black from the pickup go to the selector (same from the other pu)
And the grey will connect the preamp and selector

Yes.
DMRACO said:
I may just add a battery box to the build just in case.

I've never seen the point in battery boxes. There is plenty of room in the control cavity for a battery, if you want one, and you will only need to pop the control cover to change it once a year or so. No need to do any extra routing that you may not even want later down the road.
 
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