refinish help!!!

[jasoncounce]

Im new here and hope someone can help me that knows. I have been in the refinishing business for years, that is auto. Wood ,im finding out is a whole different deal. I have a unfinished strat with quilted maple top. I want to dye the top and just have it transparent blue , and cleared. I have the sanding and dyeing down. But i tried to clear it and that didnt turn out good. I been told i need to use a grain filler . Do i do this before I dye or after? And after I dye and fill the wood am I ready to clear? need some help here ,have already sanded back to bare wood two times. 

 

[Cagey]

Maple generally doesn't need filling. But, for as level as the surface is after a good sanding, it still takes numerous coats of clear with some level sanding between coats to get a good surface on it. Once you have 8 or 10 coats on there, you start lightening up on the grit, going to 600, 800, 1200, 1500 and then the rubbing compounds. Finally, some swirl remover and then polish and you should be good to go.

There's a very good article on finishing bodies here that you might want to review. If you follow their schedule, you can't miss.

 

[Tonar8352]

Do not fill the maple.  Here is a thread of a quilt Les Paul  I'm still in the process of doing for one of my forum friends. If you look through the hole thread it has pictures of the process. http://www.unofficialwarmoth.com/index.php?topic=20597.0

I am also just finished with the final coat on this refin quilt. http://www.unofficialwarmoth.com/index.php?topic=20663.0

Finishing quilt maple is almost like finishing end grain on a piece of wood; sucks finish for ever. I only use lacquer and the trick is to get your dye on the way you want it to look and then shoot 3 light coats of clear and light sand with 320.  Do not try to level sand or you will burn through just knock down any particles you might have. Then start hitting it with two heavy coats of clear a day, let it set over night and sand it again with 320 and repeat the process. You might have to do it several times before you finally get it level. It might seem like your getting a lot of finish on there but you will be sanding a lot off as you go.

Once it is level shoot it with two final coats and let it set two weeks before you wet sand and rub it out. When you are finished you will understand why Gibson charges so much for for their high end guitars. They do not use  heavy poly fillers that make it easy to get a level surface quickly.

You may have to use paste filler on the back of the guitar depending on the type of wood it is.

Hope that helps you out.

 

[jasoncounce]

i used urethane primer on the back and its good. I dyed the front several times and got it like i wanted it then i put two heavy coats of urethane clear , same thing i use on autos and let it dry over night . it looked bad the next morning so I blocked it with 1000grit and went thru a few spots so that was done . I sanded all the clear off to start over .. Building up 6 or more of urethane clear is alot as it tends to get brittle that thick. The guy at Warmoth told me to use grain filler..

 

[Tonar8352]

My bad for assuming you were using lacquer. In that case I am in no position to give advise since I have not used urethane primers. Sorry.

 

[jasoncounce]

The urethane primer is just for the back cause it will not be transparent, the front is the problem ...

 

[Tonar8352]

Can you post pictures? I might have an idea for you but I need to see the problem so I don't speak presumptively again.

 

[jasoncounce]

Here is pic of the top after dyeing. Another question ,when you dye the top do you dye it one last time then clear ,or do you sand it last before clear?

 

[Tonar8352]

Another question ,when you dye the top do you dye it one last time then clear ,or do you sand it last before clear?

I would have done the guitar you are doing by dying it and then going right to clear finish as I described in my first post. But I use all kinds of different methods to get different looks.

Here is an example of a thread which I show how to get a certain look on swamp ash that someone was trying to achieve. http://www.unofficialwarmoth.com/index.php?topic=9903.msg132318#msg132318  If you do a search on paste filler you will find many threads where I show step by step process' to achieve different looks on different pieces of wood. Unfortunately there is not one that deals specifically with your situation so this is what I'm thinking you need to do.

If you can get your hands on a test board do it on that first.
1. Dye.
2. One wash coat of finish. That should really suck into the wood leaving the open grain really exposed.
3. Now apply a clear paste filler. Here is a link to some products that might be appropriate for your needs and instructions on how to apply them. http://www.homesteadfinishingproducts.com/htdocs/Pastewoodglazes.htm
4. Final finish coats.
5. Wet sand and rub out.

I hope that helps you out.

 

[jasoncounce]

Is the dye before first coat of clear left alone after wiped with dye or do you lightly go over it with fine sand paper?

 

[Cagey]

It depends on the base. Water-based dyes will raise the grain, so you might want to hit it, but you risk inconsistent coverage and so possibly a blotchy result. Solvent-based (alcohol or acetone) dyes boil off pretty fast and don't tempt you to mess with them. The end result color-wise is no different; it's more a matter of whether you're a tree-hugger or not. Solvent-based dyes put some VOCs (Volatile Organic Compounds) into the atmosphere, and if 32,395,455,296 people a day refinished guitar bodies, it might make a difference to a tree frog after 3,519 years. That would be a crime, and might make baby Jesus cry. Certainly California would have a hissy-fit and fine you into insolvency.

You may be able to guess which way I'd go. But, all that said, water-based dyes do give you more time to play, as they don't set up so fast and so make it easier to smear around evenly. it should also be noted that it doesn't matter which way you go as long as you let the vehicle burn off completely before applying the finals.

You haven't mentioned whether the urethane you're using is catalyzed or not. If not, it isn't going to look "good" after shooting no matter what you do. You'll have to wait a while for it to harden and follow up with sanding/buffing to make it look good. If it is, and it doesn't look good 10 minutes after shooting, then the underlying surface is kukka.

Prep is everything.

 

[jackthehack]

Does "Kukka" mean "shit"?

 

[jasoncounce]

Well I decided to go ahead finish dyeing top, and I knocked over it with 1000 grit just a little, Then cleaned and tacked it off good. I decided to try the only thing I could find locally and that was minwax clear lacquer in spray can. So I tapped off the laminate top portion and started coating put about 5 or so coats on top . Didnt seam to soak uo as bad as the time I used urethane clear. not real slick or shinny but looks like now im getting somewhere. Here is my next plan and tell me if you think it will work. Let the lacquer dry for a few days ,then shoot my base on rest of guitar. Lightly scuff front , and order a better lacquer clear and start laying coats on whole guitar till allot build up,sand then buff?? will all this work?

 

[Tonar8352]

Check with the urethane clear manufacture to see if it will be compatible with lacquer going on top of it. I use several different manufactures of lacquers depending on what I'm trying to accomplish but the one I would recommend most highly is the Seagrave's from LMI. It's pricey but if you're use to automotive paints prices the price won't choke you too bad, but feel free to chock because I do.http://www.lmii.com/CartTwo/thirdproducts.asp?CategoryName=Finishes&NameProdHeader=Seagrave+%28McFadden%29+Spray+Lacquer

 

[jasoncounce]

Do you think this Minwax Lacquer will work and buff out.? Bought a quart to spray in booth through my spray gun?

 

[Tonar8352]

Yes; though it will be more delicate than the stuff you are use too, it won't take as much to burn through as the urethane.  You will get the hang of it real quick and be very careful of the edges and move fast with the buffer. 
 

 

[jasoncounce]

hopefully my last question for a little while, i hope. I have now laid several coats of clear and blocked with 1000 grit after last one . My question is how much more clear and how long till i can sand and buff? Thanks for all your help by the way, couldnt have done it without your help on this board, thanks

 

[bagman67]

If it's lacquer, give it a couple weeks at least.  If it's polyurethane, I think you can go at it pretty much right away.


Bagman

 

[Tonar8352]

Once I get the finish level I will shoot one or two final coats depending on how many coats I have already applied. If you feel like you have enough material on it to be able to wet sand and rub it out with out burning through the finish I suggest one final flow coat,
let it set two weeks and then wet-sand and rub it out.

 

[jasoncounce]

Well here it is after its been cleared and blocked out twice .. I think I will block it out one more time ,then start building the final coats to sand and buff..