Raw necks - consensus of "smoothness" vs finishes

[sully]

Yeah, I know there are lots of raw neck topics here. There are also a lot of OT posts in them.

What I am wondering, from those of you who have the different raw neck woods, what are thier "smoothness" factors really like?

On guitars with finishes, my hand drags like crazy, due to my hands sweating like crazy. The best one I have played thus far is one with a very dull or satin type finish, which is not glossy and thus not very sticky. Although it is better than most finished necks (mostly maple), there is still some distinct "drag" there.

This is one reason why I am interested in a raw neck. However, when examining the info on warmoth for woods, some descriptions say "fast" and "waxy" in the same sentence, which seems to me to conflict with each other. Others will hint at a very fine close grain or an open grain. My experience with wood has been  closed grain is smoother (when sanded or course).

In the many threads here, I see a common pattern that pau ferro and ebony are a joy to have because of how "smooth" they seem to be. While the fingerboard is not as critical at this point, I believe this topic also applies there as well. I know an oiled rosewood fingerboard can be felt, when bending, the slight open grain of it can be felt anyway. And I know that after years of playing, the rosewood can wear some in often used spots. I have seen this on a few well used guitars.

So of the woods that seem readily available, what would your experience be, comparing one raw wood to another, but all vs finished neck.

For example, something like:

all my woods (insert wood type) seem to cause no drag like a finished wood can. wood X seems to be the smoothest, can't even note the grain, while wood Y I can feel the grain a bit, although I don't feel any drag. wood Z is fast and all, but I would say is the closest to having some drag, although it is nothing compared to a finished wood.

That sort of thing. Not trying to find the "perfect" wood, or the best tone or color/look. Just trying to get a reference built up here that I can refer to that is based off real experience. I lean right now with a pau ferro or ziricote fingerboard because I seem to read that they are very smooth. And for neck wood it seems bubinga is my current choise. As I said, I am not after the holy grail here, just some insight for others experiences. If everything falls in place, I will purchase a neck late this year, so I have a few months to come to some conclusion. Heck, I have nothing against maple except the finish.

 

[crash]

I seem to be one of the few people where the neck finish really doesn't affect me.  I have a maple neck with a gloss finish and a couple of raw necks.  I barely notice a difference.  Maybe just because the thumb on my neck hand doesn't get sweaty. 

I tend to like closed grain woods for fretboards for the reason you mentioned.  Even though you don't really touch the fretboard, you can feel it when you bend notes. 

I think when Warmoth says waxy, they mean slippery.  That is the way I would describe Goncalo Alves.  If you sweat a lot, you might not want wenge as the pores might get gunked up.

One thing I am going to try was suggested by Cagey (I think). Where you sand the neck wood with finer and finer sandpaper.

 

[Danuda]

Well here is my quick review of raw necks.  I came from always having finished necks so it was a new experience.
The neck I bought was wenge which is a more open wood grain.  I don't feel the grain, it is very smooth.  My hand slides on the neck not matter how sweaty it gets.  It doesn't stick like it does to a finished neck.
If this is a good or bad thing depends on personal preference.  I really like the feel and I really like how easy it is to slide around for lead work, but I find that I was used to anchoring my thumb for bar chord work.  With a typical finished neck my thumb anchored really easy with no real effort.  If the song I play has lots of bar chords in it then I find my hand getting tired faster as it takes more work to keep my thumb staying put.  If you play tons of rhythm you may not like raw necks at all.
For me I am glad I have both.

 

[Patrick from Davis]

I have ebony, pau ferro, ziricote, bocote, and wenge necks, along with a couple of painted and maple necks.  Wenge doesn't clog up at all for me.  You'd wonder about it, but it is similar to teflon, few things stick to it beside your paws.  It is quite waxy, feels like antique furniture.  Not like a gym floor.  The open grain makes it hard for your hand to conform to the surface completely, like say urethane, and is another reason it feels so slick.  Ebony and pau ferro are also quite slick, different feel though.  Bocote feels much "softer" I tend to view ebony as satin or silk, and bocote as flannel.  Don't misinterpret this as something you get caught on, it still has that antique furniture rustic slickness that is much different than a finished neck.  I am waiting for the body for my Ziricote neck, so more news later on that.

The sanding procedure is what Tonar has been doing for years.  It has gained a resurgence in recent months around here.  I used 600 to 1500 on some necks, and yes, it makes a difference.  It is very nice after sanding.  Cagey watched 8 legged freaks to help pass time while sanding, I am not sure I am that hard core.

My hands sweat a lot, and none of the necks mentioned above have iven me any problems.  If a neck would normally collect muck from playing, then I would suspect it would happen to a raw one as well.  However a microfiber clothe every now and again seems to keep everything in tip top shape for me.  The feel of the natural necks is very nice.  I recommend it. However, I have maple necks with gloss and satin finishes,and they perform just fine as well.  If I am making a build for myself, I am going to get a raw neck.  If I get a pawn shop or eBay deal, I am not going to turn it down because of a finished neck.  They both work.  I prefer raw because it is a very cool feeling when you play.
Patrick

 

[Super Turbo Deluxe Custom]

I have 1 Wenge neck, and it wasn't a life changing experience like it was for others.  My neck wood experiences til then had been a handful of maples and a couple of mahogany, all finished.  I did not like the heavy gloss Gibson necks, and my Fender necks were all over the map.  One was a factory satin back, another was gloss black that is now raw, and a 3rd was a thick gloss that was sanded and steel wooled. 

The thing about the raw exotics and the finished maple they are usually replacing, they sound different.  It took getting a Wenge neck for me to realize I like the sound of maple, even if I have to feel the finish, and even of I'm the only one that hears the difference.  Thing is too, what we think of as traditional neck and body woods on electric guitars were usually chosen, atleast early on, because of looks and cost and not so much for feel or sound.

Warmoth's satin finish does become glossy, and even worn, in the used areas. A bar rag or terrycloth towel placed on top of an amp keeps them clean enough for me.

 

[Cagey]

I have a number of raw necks here, and some finished as well. I don't have a problem with finished necks, but the raw ones feel so much better it's impossible to ignore. Once you play one, you definitely develop a preference. Another plus is you don't have to pay for or work at a finish, so you can invest the time/money you would have directed that way into more exotic woods that either play better or are more attractive/unusual. And while I think the neck has more to do with the the sonic character of the instrument than the body does, it's not really an issue when moving to exotic woods. If you like Maple, you can always do Canary or Afra. If you like Mahogany, you can always do Goncalo Alves. More examples exist, but the point I'm trying to make is that you're not going to suffer by not using the traditional garden variety woods that everybody+dog uses.

For raw neck meat (not the fretboards), I have examples of Canary, Ziricote, Pau Ferro, Bubinga, Wenge, Aframosia, Rosewood and Bloodwood. For finished stuff, I've got Maple, Mahogany, Koa and Walnut.

If you're primarily interested in "feel", then it would be quite difficult to beat Pau Ferro or Bloodwood just as delivered. They're very dense-grained, hard woods. The Bloodwood, especially - it's like red Ebony. But, if you spend some time on them, other woods can get quite nice, too. Someone mentioned earlier about my experience with burnishing a neck, which you can read about here. That made TON of difference on that neck, and I've since done it to Canary and Wenge necks with similar results, and I'm looking forward to doing the rest of them. I mean, it's huge. It's time-consuming, but the reward is substantial.

As for how "fast" a neck is, I don't know how to work that adjective in. I don't have a death grip on my necks, and my palms don't sweat much and aren't in constant contact anyway, so drag hasn't ever really been an issue for me. My playing speed has always been a product of practicing slowly, accurate finger placement and, oddly enough, manicure. Good clean fingers without nails in the way properly placed where they're supposed to go, then a lot of time at it will result in speed if you happen to need it.

"Waxy" is an adjective I don't know how to apply, either. I suppose Wenge could be described that way, but it's sorta like calling some onions "sweet". It's a pretty wide-ranging word. Wenge is very hard and smooth, even though it's one of the most open grains I've ever seen, so it's almost like playing a textured polystyrene. You're never going to hang up on it, so I suppose the traditional use of the word "fast" also applies. Certainly nothing slowing you down. A very unique wood, and highly recommended if you're not a germophobe.

 

[sully]

Thank you so much for the replies. Insightful information, exactly what I was hoping for.

Regarding the adjective "fast" I guess that would really mean "drag".

Example: when my hands sweat, finished wood of neck causes a drag when moving up/down the neck. Anti-fast I guess. Same thing occurs to a degree with the rosewood fingerboard, but not as often. Its strange how moisture on my hands (which is about the only place I sweat actually) can cause such an abrupt stop in movement. I would have thought it would make it slick not tacky.

But like I said, I am not trying to find some wood/neck that will make me better/faster/etc just because of the wood. I am just hoping a rather annoying problem might be alleviated.

Of those who have raw woods, and that might happen to sweat on thier hands, do you notice a difference at all in raw vs finished for that tacky drag? Or, maybe I am just making a big deal out of something that is common and not that big of a deal. Don't know for sure.

Regardless, thank you so much for all the infos.

 

[Cagey]

Some of it - maybe even most of it - may have to do with playing style. Whether or not your palm sweats shouldn't matter, since it shouldn't really be in much contact with the neck. For instance...

Proper positioning​

If your palm is in contact, chances are you're working too hard, number one, and you're going to have trouble due to friction, number two. If you can't play without your palm in contact, you may be holding the guitar too low, or have developed some lazy/bad habits. For instance, a lotta guys hang their fretting hand off the neck by their thumb, or even try to use the thumb as a fretting finger, so even if the palm isn't in contact, the meat between your thumb and pointing finger is in constant contact. That's NFG.

If you're not holding your neck properly, chance are once you start down that path it's going to hurt. It'll feel unnatural, even though it's not. Your thumb or wrist muscles are going to get sore or cramp. Practice will eliminate that. I mean lotsa practice over a protracted period of time until it's natural. You need to push against your thumb, not your hand, and your wrist should be straight. If you have to, go to a bowling alley or sporting goods store and get a wrist straightener brace.

They're cheap, and they'll force you to behave yourself until it becomes natural.

 

[Cagey]

I should also add that sweating all over your neck adds to the problem. Even if you wipe the thing down, perspiration is salty and oily stuff that will wear the neck finish as well as accumulate and leave deposits that make it both rough and sticky. Buddy of mine has that problem, and I hate to see him even touch my guitars as he's not only a sweaty rascal, it's that highly acidic alien sweat that'll eat the finish right off the most well-plated hardware. I can't even play his guitars, as they feel like they've been finished with Shell No-Pest Strips, suitable for trapping flies in mid-flight with only glancing contact. So, just like you don't wipe your nose on your sleeve, you don't wipe your hand on the neck. It's kukka! <grin>

 

[sully]

Nice idea about the brace.

I do try to keep the pad of my thumb in near the center of neck. My palm does touch and my thumb does come up when bending or other specific actions, but for chord work and EAD strings it is almost always thumb in middle. My long fingers dictate that to play GBE I must flatten the wrist, bring the thumb up so that I can actually reach those lower strings. Either that or use a nasty bend in the wrist.

I play minimum an hour a day, devoted to learning by repetition. It is actually the whole hand that sweats, thumb pad included. I wouldn't say there are "drops" of sweat, more like a slight sweat "film" that covers my hand. You can barely see it reflect light, so it is not excessive, but it does cause drag.

I may try one of those braces, just to see the difference. I decided last fall to go ahead and pay for some lessons, mostly to learn theory and advanced ideas. My instructor has told me a lot about the "why" to use good form. Since he has been doing this for 30 years, and is good enough to have big names pay him to be a studio musician on different records, I figure he knows what he is talking about... so I try to listen to sage advice. Pretty much the same thing you are espousing really.

I will take note tonight when I get with my bro for a little jam sesh and focus on keeping my palm well away from the neck and see if that make a difference.

Thanks for the pointers!

 

[Cagey]

Repetition is a Good Thing. But if you're practicing wrong, you're only reinforcing playing wrong, and the more you practice the worse you'll get. Makes it much harder to learn to do it right.

A very good teacher I had years ago once told me "If you want to speed up, slow down". What he was trying to get me to do was to play accurately and correctly. If you can't do it slowly, you'll never do it quickly. It'll just be a sloppy, painful mess for everybody involved.

He also said "Always use a Metronome". It keeps you honest. If you can't keep up, you slow it down until you can and that's where you practice. For a while. Months, even. Do that until when you increase the BPM by a few points, you still don't make any mistakes. Then, stay there for a while. Lather, rinse, repeat. Takes a long time - like months or years - but it pays like crime. Otherwise, you're just wasting your time. You'll always sound like an amateur hack, and you'll always be in pain. He followed this these precepts and this was a guy who was so good he did studio work in any discipline and could sight-read music.

Famous players notwithstanding, you can't break the rules unless you can successfully play by them.

 

[sully]

lol, I do a lot of really slow repetitions, just not usually with a metronome. I really should turn that thing on more often. But I do play to backing tracks once I am able to with new things, wouldn't that be similar? I only get to jam with others a few times a month as the family requires most of me

One reason I am paying for instructions is to make sure any bad habits are noted and I can correct them.

After living on earth for 41 years, to me if it is worth learning, then it is worth learning right.

Thanks for yet more valuable information!

 

[Cagey]

Most of us are least critical of ourselves. We get to thinking we're badass and everybody else is the ass hole. But, using a tuner and playing with a metronome will take you down a few pegs. You're not as tight as you think you are. I mean, it can be as embarrassing as those terrifying dreams where you're naked in front of large group of people... <grin>

Keeping in tune and in time is what separates the men from the boys. Everybody else can hear it from a mile away, even though you may not be able to. You need an honest, impartial and dispassionate judge who really doesn't care a lick about you, and a metronome is it. Don't play any faster than you can play accurately, or you're wasting your time. Nobody will want to play with you unless they're as bad as you are, then you won't want to play with them.

50 million garage bands who never made it out of the garage can't be wrong.