Pickup Suggestions Needed

[Doughboy]

I have a chambered Warmoth strat with a mahogany body / koa top & mahogany neck / bloodwood fingerboard. It has a floyd & a Duncan Custom 5 in the bridge & 2 Duncan STK-4 in the middle & neck.

The problem is that this guitar & PU combo is very muddy sounding. There is no defenition in the bottom end. No edge, no cutting through & it sounds boomy. I am looking for a set of medium to high output PUs that would add clarity & bottom end definition without any harsh sizzle or treble in the high end register. Can you please recommend something?

 

[Mor Paul]

It needs a...
nevermind.

 

[bpmorton777]

what value pots are you using?

Brian

 

[Dan025]

before i make a recomendation what value pots did you use? how long/what style cable do you use?

those old style spiral jobs or anything very long have a ton of capacitance and will mess with the pickup selection.

 

[Doughboy]

I use 500k Dimarzio pots & a 6 foot straight cable. All my other guitars sound fine, but they're alder or ash w/ maple tops. This guitar seems very dark & boomy.

 

[Dan025]

well it is hollow mahogany/mahogany. so it seems it is the pups assuming everything is all wired right which i will. something more PAF style would be good but none of that aged magnet or alnico 2 stuff. maybe a 59 or jazz or a lynch screamin demon. a ceramic magnet is usually brighter but all duncans stuff with ceramics is way over wound. guys on this board use riogrande and vintage vibe and a few other brands but i don't know any models. maybe if you want output a Lawrance L-500R or L-500L. these are brighter versions of the l-500XL that the dimebucker is reverse engineered from.

 

[AprioriMark]

I don't know, I half wonder if it's not a weird pot.  Have you tried replacing both of them? 

If it is just wood tones not being compatible with the pickups... I think you might be going too hot with your pickups for such an already "woofy" sounding guitar.  I would dial it back, and use something intentionally clearer, like Lollar, Roadhouse, etc (at least for the single coils).  I imagine that the bridge humbucker will be the real kink.  I can't think of any pickups that retain "chimey" without getting "honky" in a darker sounding body.  I had this issue with a Les Paul I used to play a lot.  I ended up using some lower output Alnico II Duncans, but it still wasn't perfect.  If I still owned the guitar, I'd try active EMGs.

Regarding the Lawrence and Dime-inspired pickups, I've heard it said that they have the one sound, and it doesn't work in all guitars or through tube amps very well.  There's an interesting article in last month's Guitar World concerning his gear, and I remember a reference to the pickups from the guys who built them.

-Mark

 

[Doughboy]

I checked all the pots & they were all functioning well & 500k across the board.

The Duncan Custom 5 is basically a Duncan 59 with more output. I have a 59 in my chambered alder/maple Warmoth & it sounds fine, even a wee bit too trebly, so I thought a higher output version would be perfect for the new guitar.

The problem with EMGs are that they tend to override your tonewoods & make the guitar sound like the EMG. I have a Warmoth L5S that was so honky sounding that it was unplayable. I tried a ton of different passive PUs & they all sounded honky. I went for a set of EMG 85s & problem solved. The PUs just took over the guitar & made it sound like an EMG 85. I think it would be a shame to have such nice tonewoods as mahogany/koa & then have the EMGs just render them almost useless.

My last resort may be to change all the pots to 1 meg ones. This will definitely increase the high end & tighten the sound up....hopefully.

Any other suggestions are more than welcome. Thanks!

 

[CrackedPepper]

You may want to look at the Toneshaper - it will let you play with the caps and maybe let you dial out some of the undesirable aspects.  Since you have a rear route it would be pretty easy to change settings. 

 

[Dan025]

despite seymour duncans tone assesment of those pickup they have little similarity. the dc resistance is higher by over 50% and that means either lighter wire or more windings or both. anyway the you look at it the custom 5 must have more inductance, it either has a higher turn count or it has more turns per square and the inductance must be higher. the advertised resonant frequency is similar but lower but there is no explanation of the testing method and i doubt you will see that similarity in practice. the assumption that the ceramic magnet counteracts the differences in circuit would be a bad one. the two may be described in the same way and may even "sound" the same in some guitars but i wouldn't dismiss a PAFstyle pup as an option in your guitar.

yes due to the higher impedance across the board in the custom 5 a 1-meg pot might be the answer. and much cheaper than a new pup. if you do decide to switch pups and high output is a must the L-500C, L-500R, L-500L are more or less PAF toned use ceramic magnets and have high output though the L-500C is more or less a neck version and may be to bright.

i hope you don't take this post as condescending as i tend to over explain i just want to be clear and informative.

 

[Doughboy]

You may want to look at the Toneshaper - it will let you play with the caps and maybe let you dial out some of the undesirable aspects.  Since you have a rear route it would be pretty easy to change settings.   

I installed a tone shaper that rolls off the bass & leaves all the other frequencies untouched on the neck single coil. It works, but the PU sound a little wierd. Too thin & not enough fullness. It works when I combine it with the middle PU. For the humbucker, I'm just looking to get some bottom end tightness & some cutting through power.

 

[Doughboy]

despite seymour duncans tone assesment of those pickup they have little similarity. the dc resistance is higher by over 50% and that means either lighter wire or more windings or both. anyway the you look at it the custom 5 must have more inductance, it either has a higher turn count or it has more turns per square and the inductance must be higher. the advertised resonant frequency is similar but lower but there is no explanation of the testing method and i doubt you will see that similarity in practice. the assumption that the ceramic magnet counteracts the differences in circuit would be a bad one. the two may be described in the same way and may even "sound" the same in some guitars but i wouldn't dismiss a PAFstyle pup as an option in your guitar.

yes due to the higher impedance across the board in the custom 5 a 1-meg pot might be the answer. and much cheaper than a new pup. if you do decide to switch pups and high output is a must the L-500C, L-500R, L-500L are more or less PAF toned use ceramic magnets and have high output though the L-500C is more or less a neck version and may be to bright.

i hope you don't take this post as condescending as i tend to over explain i just want to be clear and informative.

Thanks so much for the detailed answer. I will try 1 meg pots & go from there.

I'm not dead set on high output PUs, but a little extra power is nice since I don't have to use as much gain to get the sustain I want & the sound is therefore less distorted & sizzly.

I've found that Duncan PUs tend to be less tight than Dimarzios for some reason, so I may look into something from Dimarzio. The Dimarzio tech suggested a Mo Joe or a Norton to fix my problem, but I haven't heard those PUs, and as good a player as Satriani is, his tone is the opposite of what I like. It's very sizzly, high endy & lacks warmth.

Basically, I'd be very happy with a higher output PAF that has a tigher bottom end.

 

[-CB-]

Can you please recommend something?

Sure, I'll trade you for a Telecaster.... only jokin. 

(does his best Charlton Heston) "you'll get my Tele when its pried from my cold dead fingers!"

There's lots of bright pickups out there.  500k pots make a difference too

 

[Doughboy]

Can you please recommend something?

Sure, I'll trade you for a Telecaster.... only jokin. 

(does his best Charlton Heston) "you'll get my Tele when its pried from my cold dead fingers!"

There's lots of bright pickups out there.  500k pots make a difference too

Technically, according to the Duncan tone chart, the Custom 5 is a bright PU with an 8/10 treble rating. However, the bass bottom end is very mushy & boomy. I do have 500k pots, but was thinking of going to 1 meg pots. But now that I think of it, I don't neccessarily want more treble, I just want a tighter less boomy bottom end.

Perhaps, my choice of woods, as good as they look, is a bad combo.

 

[Superbeast520]

Rio Grande Pickups....I used em on a similar Black Korina Body and there was nothing muddy about them.....Muy Grande Hum bridge, Tallboy Hum neck, dirty harry jr. single in the middle,  they all retained excellent clarity and tone with standard Hum/pot/cap values.

Its not your woods....its the pickups your using with that wood combo.....thats not to say someone else wouldn't like them as they are, but if your looking for tighter bass and better clarity I can't stress the Rio's enough.  

I also like Dimarzio's and thought they were great especially when run in parrallel, I noticed they had really good note seperation and wern't muddy at all.....I didn't feel the same way about Seymour Duncans....I know alot of people like their pickups and they have been doing pickups forever, but I can't say I've found a set I like enough to keep in a guitar.

 

[Doughboy]

Rio Grande Pickups....I used em on a similar Black Korina Body and there was nothing muddy about them.....Muy Grande Hum bridge, Tallboy Hum neck, dirty harry jr. single in the middle,  they all retained excellent clarity and tone with standard Hum/pot/cap values.

Its not your woods....its the pickups your using with that wood combo.....thats not to say someone else wouldn't like them as they are, but if your looking for tighter bass and better clarity I can't stress the Rio's enough.  

I also like Dimarzio's and thought they were great especially when run in parrallel, I noticed they had really good note seperation and wern't muddy at all.....I didn't feel the same way about Seymour Duncans....I know alot of people like their pickups and they have been doing pickups forever, but I can't say I've found a set I like enough to keep in a guitar.

I agree with you on Dimarzios. I have a slew of Duncans & Dimarzios & all the Dimarzios, even the low output vintage ones, are tighter & less muddy. The Duncans all seem to have loose low ends. However, I think I will try swapping the A5 magnet for an A8 or ceramic & see if that tightens up the low end. It's a lot cheaper than getting a whole new set of PUs.

 

[Superbeast520]

Yeah I relate to that......I agree with the Dimarzios....I had A/Bd them against some very nice Duncans at the time and was also looking for Tight bottom end and good note seperation and I came to the same conclusions...which at the time had me baffled....I thought for sure the Duncans would be the Sh**t ...I actually went out and purchased them as a replacement for the Dimarzios and ended up keeping the Dimarzios and wiring them in Parrallel as I liked the detail better...more single coil sounding, but still humbuckers.....

 

[Death by Uberschall]

The problem with EMGs are that they tend to override your tonewoods & make the guitar sound like the EMG.

.
This is just not true. ^^^

I have EMG 81/85 & 81/SA combos in several guitars? I can tell you EMGs do not sound the same in every guitar. I know that for a fact. Wood and build style makes a difference. My PRS C24, Gibson LP Gothic and Jackson Kelly are all equipped with 81/85 pups and none of them sound the same. My Hamer Californians with the 81/SA pups sound much different. Then throw both my Warmoth Soloist & Tele in the mix with the 81/85 pups and I can show you six different sounding EMG guitars.

Wood and amps will make the most noticeable difference.

 

[Doughboy]

The problem with EMGs are that they tend to override your tonewoods & make the guitar sound like the EMG.

.
This is just not true. ^^^

I have EMG 81/85 & 81/SA combos in several guitars? I can tell you EMGs do not sound the same in every guitar. I know that for a fact. Wood and build style makes a difference. My PRS C24, Gibson LP Gothic and Jackson Kelly are all equipped with 81/85 pups and none of them sound the same. My Hamer Californians with the 81/SA pups sound much different. Then throw both my Warmoth Soloist & Tele in the mix with the 81/85 pups and I can show you six different sounding EMG guitars.

Wood and amps will make the most noticeable difference.

I don't think they sound 100% the same in every guitar, but they tend to over take the guitar 's characterisitcs more than passive PUs.

I have an Ash soloist with 81s, a basswood strat with 85 & SAs & an alder strat w/ 89 & SAs. I also have the same woods in other guitars with passive PUs & the EMG over take the sound of the woods more than the passive ones do.

I like EMGs a lot & nothing beats them for clarity & cut. I was just hoping for a warmer more vintage tone while getting clarity & bottom end tightness

 

[Doughboy]

I put in 1 meg pots & problem solved.  :hello2:

There is more cut & edge, but it's not overly bright or sizzly. Cost a lot less than getting all new PUs.