My dyeing wish...

[Prometheus]

I wish to dye a veneer for a pegboard. It's a Warmoth neck, Vintage Modern, and thus I couldn't get them to do a matching pegboard veneer, so I'm looking to tackle it myself. Trouble is, I've never done any dyeing before, and to make matters worse for this scenario, it's got to match the Warmoth-finished top.

The top is flame maple, blue dyed, with black burst. I've done some research on the process of dyeing, but there appear to be sooooo many choices. I am getting some flame maple veneers to pick from and practice on. These will be from a variety of trees, and so I'll have a range of wood tones to play with.

But because it's got to match, I wonder if there'd be any advantage in using the dyes that Warmoth uses. So my first question is... does anybody know what that happens to be?

Secondly, barring any hard info on that, what products would you recommend?

Here are some of my thoughts as to the approach. I'm not going to be shooting poly as a top coat, so I think some lacquer will be fine. Something water-based would be easier for me to deal with in the place I'll have to be working in. So that leaves me with either a non-water dye, or a water-dye with a shellac coat between that and the top coat. Oh, and I think I'll be trying to do the burst by airbrush using the top coat product (instead of with dye-on-wood), so that stuff will have to be able to go to black too. My plan is:
prep / dye black / [sand back / dye blue]repeat / glue-clamp-attach / trim / shellac / [shoot burst]repeat / drill and dremel holes / [shoot clear]repeat.    (I omitted the between-coat sandings and all the cursing)

I'll pause there, and ask further questions if I need to, once I get some feedback from the gallery. Please fill me in, fix me up, shoot me down, set me on the straight and narrow. My thanks in advance for any help you have to offer.

 

[Cagey]

You may want to consider that if Warmoth, a company fulla professionals that makes dozens of custom necks a day, doesn't want to do something because they can't get good results, it may not be a great idea to ignore their advice.

Not that some rarely seen things are impossible; certainly examples exist to disprove that. But, it make take too many tries, take too much time and/or present too high a risk of scrapping the part, so they just say no.

I know applying veneer is not as easy as it looks, and requires special tools to do well. In the case of some Fender headstocks, you also have truss rod adjustment holes that you'd need to clear, and there's no covering them up because of the headstock design. So, getting those to look good would probably be extremely difficult.

Finally, they won't do dye or burst finishes on headstocks separately from a body order because getting them to match otherwise in very difficult. So, here again, it's not that it can't be done, just that the results quite likely won't be satisfactory. So, they just say no.

You could still do it all, though. Patience and perseverance both pay well when it comes to woodworking and finishing. But, you're admitting to a lack of experience that doesn't bode well for the results. For that reason, most folks normally don't take on that sort of project first crack out of the box, especially on a high-end part such as Warmoth sells. Better to experiment on scrap, then small projects, then a cheap guitar, etc. before you start terrorizing a $500 neck <grin>

As for dyes, you don't have to put a barrier coat between them and your finish even if you change bases.

I can't speak about airbrushes. They seem like a good idea, but I've heard otherwise when it comes to guitar work.

 

[Prometheus]

Thanks Cagey. Yeah, I know, pretty industrious. But I'm notorious for starting at the deep end of the pool. Ya may swallow some water, but you learn faster (or drown  ).

The reasons you mention about why Warmoth doesn't want to do this particular job, are true. I did in fact ask for it while ordering the body and neck at the same time. But I was told that the critical issue is that truss rod adjustment hole. Not that it's impossible. It's that it's tricky, and very time-intensive to get it right. Understandable. But if it's hard to judge how long it'll take (add in the risk of having to re-do), then it's not something that's easy to charge for. I suppose that even if they did, it'd be so expensive, nobody would order it.

My initial vision for the guitar was with a matching headstock finish. And while I know it'll look killer without it, I'm sure you can identify with what I know my thoughts will be ... "Wow, that's nice. If only I'd been able to get that headstock done".

I've got some flame maple veneer on the way. Plenty for matching and practicing. And I have a throwaway Squier on hand, and wouldn't be averse to picking up a cheapie neck or salvaging a ruined one from a local shop. And believe you me, I'm gonna have to feel pretty confident before I go to town on my new neck! So while the ultimate application may not be imminent, my getting some experience under my belt is.

I've done finishing before, including airbrushing, but with different products, and on larger objects (cars). But wood finishing is new to me. Still, I thought that airbrushing the black burst over the blue-dyed maple would be a solid approach. But I guess the normal route is just doing it in dye as well?

I intended to spray the clear coats as well, but I see several references to wipe-on poly. It's a pretty small piece, so the sanding wouldn't be a big chore one way or the other. But I just thought that it'd leave a rougher coat than spraying, and thus I'd lose more with each between-application sanding. Thoughts?

And I'm still in the dark as to the forum's preferred brands/products for this kind of job. Anybody? Everybody?

 

[Cagey]

My initial vision for the guitar was with a matching headstock finish. And while I know it'll look killer without it, I'm sure you can identify with what I know my thoughts will be ... "Wow, that's nice. If only I'd been able to get that headstock done".

Yes, I can identify. I generally love matching headstocks. Although, I have to say, I'm constantly surprised at how often I hear/see people say/write that they'd rather avoid that. Can't imagine why. My best guess is "sour grapes"  :laughing7:

...I thought that airbrushing the black burst over the blue-dyed maple would be a solid approach. But I guess the normal route is just doing it in dye as well?

I don't have as much experience with bursts as some do. I've seen it done with dye on the body, but it hasn't worked out well for me the few times I've tried it. I have better luck shooting the burst over the base. Based on that experience I can't imagine it working on the headstock, although I can't say I've tried it.

I know I spoke against it earlier, but I think if it was me, because of the size I'd go with an airbrush on the headstock as well, but only because I don't have the type of spray rig that allows me to use different guns and I think it really is a matter of using the right tool for the job. Headstock is small, so use a small gun if you want to do detail work.

I intended to spray the clear coats as well, but I see several references to wipe-on poly. It's a pretty small piece, so the sanding wouldn't be a big chore one way or the other. But I just thought that it'd leave a rougher coat than spraying, and thus I'd lose more with each between-application sanding. Thoughts?

Given a choice between brush, wipe and spray, I always go spray. Loss of material is less important to me than finish quality. I consider the loss to be just a part of doing a finish. If I were a manufacturer, I'm sure I'd change my mind in a hurry, but when you only do a few a year a couple bucks here and there isn't a deal-breaker.

I will say, though, that I've had some interesting results with the wipe-on poly. If you have long, smooth runs (a neck back, for instance), you can get a great finish with almost no work or mess at all. But, if you have to wipe past holes or obstructions, it always shows up. The disruption leaves marks, and you really can't overwork the stuff to straighten them out. Turns into a damn tarbaby - the more you work it, the worse it gets. Then, trying to clear that up after the fact is no fun.

Poly is sort of a one-shot deal. Get it right the first time, or go cry in your beer. With lacquer, there's always a way out.

And I'm still in the dark as to the forum's preferred brands/products for this kind of job. Anybody? Everybody?

The metal-based tints/dyes/stains are the ones to use. They work with water, alcohol, acetone, etc. and don't care about the solids (lacquer, poly, latex, concrete, etc.). Some call them "universal dyes". Anyway, Transtint is a brand you'll hear a lot about around here, and can be found in many places. I use Colortone, which I'd bet dollars to donut holes is private-labelled Transtint. I have no preference, but the Colortone package is faster/easier for me to get.

(Woodcrafters sells Transtint dye, Stewart-MacDonald sells Colortone.)

 

[stubhead]

I seem to have cured both water-based poly, and Tru-oil, the same way. And that is - thin it way, way down. Obviously naptha or mineral spirits with the Tru-Oil, water with poly. Tru-oil I do straight up half and half, poly more like a third water, but I ball up some t=shirt scraps inside an other "ball" of clean t-shirt, And I wet that to soaking with just water, the squeeze some out. As you're putting on the poly, you can wet it more with a bit of a squeeze. I should really try that with naptha and Tru-Oil.

I don't try to pile up finish, just wet the wood with it and go away. And between 30 and 45 minutes, go put on another coat - again, just wet it. And then another in 30 minutes, then another... maybe that's why it doesn't catch on, because you want to put on four or five coats, then wait a few hours (overnight is better) and sand it just a hair - 320 grit. Then put on another 3, 4, 5 coats, 30 - 45 minutes apart. So in other words, it takes about 10 or 12 hours. You can't go anywhere, watch for cathairs! I have it mounted on a camera tripod with a modified head, so I just put it in the closet and take it out, and put it in, and take... well you see. It's absolutely impossible to get orange peel or runs because there's never enough finish on there to do anything like that!

There are so very many procedures in finishing (and wiring!) that are lifted directly from the methods used to make 80 guitars a time in a big factory. But I'm not on an assembly line, I'm not trying to maximize production. So just putting on a bunch of thin layers, timed so they each stick to the previous ones... well, I don't think I'll be talking Gibson into it!  :toothy12:

The chemistry of finishes has been changing and improving like crazy the past 20 years or so, so when I read about how the good old days had the best finishing secrets... it kinda sounds like going to an old doctor who hasn't changed a thing in thirty years...

Here's a new finishing shellac they recommend cutting 50/50, or even - EIGHT parts alcohol to one part shellac as a sealer.

http://www.lmii.com/products/finishing/finishes/u-beaut-hard-shellac