Move the Index hole to under the bridge?

[ihavenothingprofoundtosay]

I'm looking at a future build, and one of the options I'd like is just piezos in the bridge (or possibly w/neck pickup only) on a solid top.  (aizenx's recent project has apparently sparked a trend  :toothy12 Under the current building scheme, that would leave an index hole where the bridge pickup would be.  As has been pointed out before, this can ruin the look of certain transparent finished, solid top guitars to have that little dot there, and it's apparently not going to be an option to match the wood.

So my suggestion is to move the index hole to where the bridge would be, maybe an inch or so "south" of where it is now (as it's apparently done on Variax guitars).  That way, it would be possible to cover that hole with almost any (if not every) bridge one went with.  Even if one had a TOM or Gotoh 510, for example, it would be positioned directly over the hole.  Anything preventing this?  Or would it require a total retooling of the machines?  Or a reprogramming of the CNC patterns?

Also, why is this possible on basses, but not guitars? (Ie - it appears that the index holes for basses are removed when routing the groundwire hole)  Anyone know?

 

[Super Turbo Deluxe Custom]

That's actually a good suggestion.  There's gotta be reason it is where it is though.

 

[Mor Paul]

That's actually a good suggestion.  There's gotta be reason it is where it is though.

My bet is TOMs, as mentioned. Though... if there were 2 options for guiding holes....

 

[OzziePete]

That's actually a good suggestion.  There's gotta be reason it is where it is though.

My bet is TOMs, as mentioned. Though... if there were 2 options for guiding holes....

Someone at W could press the wrong option and completely ruin a great top and body..... That maybe why they try to keep this consistently at the one point, and could also save on reprogramming the machine?

 

[BigBeard]

You know you have a good idea, but I can almost guarantee that they will never move the index hole.  It would take a total re-tool or re-program on their part that just ain't gonna happen!

Ok, there are ways to work with this.  Actually for years and years I had this concept in my mind for an electric guitar that only had a piezo bridge pickup.  Originally in my mind this guitar would have had an acoustic type wood bridge and a Fishman under it..... But then I discovered LR Baggs and their wonderful T-Bridge and my concept shifted in my mind.  But this guitar concept has never included magnetic pickups, so the index hole was something that I would have to deal with.  So what I thought of is instead of trying to hide something that is going to be almost impossible to hide, why not make it a nice little detail in the guitar?  How can you do that?  Well I think the solution is simple.  Have them put an abalone dot in the index hole, which is an option that W offers, and have abalone dots put into your neck, will totally tie the whole guitar together, and not make it look like you are trying to hide something.  I bet you get compliments on the little dot!  I think that would be your best solution to this problem.

 

[Cagey]

That's a good idea. Other ideas might be to change the hole from a little round one to a different shape, and fill it with something else. Or, fill it and have a little intarsia done over that, and call it a love story. Or, just have somebody make a body the old-fashioned way without using a CNC machine, and you don't end up with a locator hole at all. Send it to Tonar for a finish, and you're all set.

 

[JaySwear]

obviously the best way to hide the hole. nobody will even notice it's there! they just see a cute cat.

seriously though, i guess 99.9% of all guitar projects end up with a bridge pickup of some kind (even for people who rarely use the bridge pickup).

 

[Cagey]

That is one abused... umm... cat, I guess. Poor thing must've done some time <grin>

 

[ihavenothingprofoundtosay]

I'm going to need some serious brain bleach for that, Jay..... ugh...

I've got a few ways I can accomplish what I'd like, but it would just be great if Warmoth could have that be an option.  If not, well.... than I'll have to invest in a router, and the maple caps over at Stewmac will have to be fitted to something in a grand experiment.

... as soon as I can con myself into believing I can afford it!  :toothy10:

 

[swarfrat]

And it's not like you can get rid of the image by thinking about rainbows or  kittens either. Have to find something else.

If you truly want an inconspicuous plug for the hole, drill it, dowel it in same wood and then finish.

It can't put it someplace that will be machined away (like bridge or neck pocket), or else it would require moving the index pin and that means you just lost your zero.

 

[line6man]

And it's not like you can get rid of the image by thinking about rainbows or  kittens either. Have to find something else.

If you truly want an inconspicuous plug for the hole, drill it, dowel it in same wood and then finish.

It can't put it someplace that will be machined away (like bridge or neck pocket), or else it would require moving the index pin and that means you just lost your zero.

In the rare cases that someone wants a body with no magnetic pickup routes, couldn't Warmoth do the routing for the bridge by hand, after everything else is done?
I can't imagine people are ordering bodies with no magnetic pickup routes often enough that it would put any strain on productivity to do bridge routes by hand?

 

[Cagey]

In the rare cases that someone wants a body with no magnetic pickup routes, couldn't Warmoth do the routing for the bridge by hand, after everything else is done?
I can't imagine people are ordering bodies with no magnetic pickup routes often enough that it would put any strain on productivity to do bridge routes by hand?

I suspect that a lot more than the pickup routes require that index point. With many CNC operations, coordinates are relative rather than absolute. That's why they call it an "index". Everything is relative to the position of that point, rather than being described as some absolute position in space. In other words, you don't put a hole at X, Y, you put it at index +/- X dimension, index +/- Y dimension. Actually, there's usually a Z coordinate as well, and there may be some angular coordinates, too, but you see what I'm saying. You can't just move or remove that index, or every dimension in the program will be wrong. On the plus side, and this is a HUGE plus, you can just plop a blank down and secure it without worrying too much about its initial position. The machine sets its reference or index point, then everything goes from there.

 

[line6man]

In the rare cases that someone wants a body with no magnetic pickup routes, couldn't Warmoth do the routing for the bridge by hand, after everything else is done?
I can't imagine people are ordering bodies with no magnetic pickup routes often enough that it would put any strain on productivity to do bridge routes by hand?

I suspect that a lot more than the pickup routes require that index point. With many CNC operations, coordinates are relative rather than absolute. That's why they call it an "index". Everything is relative to the position of that point, rather than being described as some absolute position in space. In other words, you don't put a hole at X, Y, you put it at index +/- X dimension, index +/- Y dimension. Actually, there's usually a Z coordinate as well, and there may be some angular coordinates, too, but you see what I'm saying. You can't just move or remove that index, or every dimension in the program will be wrong. On the plus side, and this is a HUGE plus, you can just plop a blank down and secure it without worrying too much about its initial position. The machine sets its reference or index point, then everything goes from there.

Obviously you would have to rewrite the CNC programs to do this. I figured that would go without saying.
But now that I think of it, why would Warmoth want to go to all the trouble to please the no magnetic pickups crowd? That's a hell of a lot of work for a handful of sales a year.

 

[Cagey]

There's that, too. How often does somebody build an electric with no pickups? I've only seen one here in the last year, so... maybe 10 total? Means they might be passing on $3K to $4K a year? I don't know. In my experience, sometimes you have to pass on business that doesn't fit the norm even if you're capable of it, unless there's a chance that it could become the norm and you wanna be in on the ground floor.

 

[Super Turbo Deluxe Custom]

Maybe it could be moved to the neck pocket.  However someone may want to know why they can't get a guitar body w/out a neck pocket for their setneck project.

BTW, how are the showcase bodies which are already pickup routed have the option for new pickup routes since the index hole is gone?  In other words, a S-S-S Strat body can be made into a H-S-H body and a your choice trem are all done w/out an index hole.  I was under the impression the last route to be done was the bridge pickup route.

 

[ihavenothingprofoundtosay]

It's not so much the no pickups crowd so much as no bridge pickup.  Try telling me this isn't a sexy guitar:

http://godinguitars.com/godin5thavenuekingpinp.htm

:icon_biggrin:

There's plenty of ways to accomplish what I'd like to do, but it would be a nice addition to the stable of options directly from Warmoth.

But now I'm curious.... this guitar doesn't seem to have an index hole....

http://www.warmoth.com/Showcase/ShowcaseItem.aspx?i=lpscp35&Body=2&Path=Body

?

Maybe it could be moved to the neck pocket.  However someone may want to know why they can't get a guitar body w/out a neck pocket for their setneck project.

As I understand it, there's at least 2 required, one of which is in the neck pocket.

 

[Nando Vallart]

I believe that if you ask for a top the index hole will be covered... it's true for carved top, but I think it will be true also to the thin tops...

 

[Cagey]

That's a good question that only they can answer. Could be they have a pile of jigs to suit the various body styles, and they fit them up as needed on the CNC to route the pickup reliefs. Also could be they have a pile of templates and do the pickup reliefs by hand. It would be a pretty fast operation if there's a router already set up with a pattern follower bit. Or, it could be magic <grin>