I know some of you are fans of the RS Guitarworks superpots so I thought I'd share that they're having a 20% off sale through Monday if you want to stock up like I just did.
http://store.rsguitarworks.net
http://store.rsguitarworks.net
FYI: RS Guitarworks weekend sale
- Thread starter Damon
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Cagey
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No. Those are just NOS $3 CTS pots, which while not junk, aren't anything to write home about. Now, for 24 cents more ($13 vs. $12.76) you can get some milspec Clarostats here. They will also not do anything for your tone, but they're smoother and sealed and will last one helluva lot longer than any CTS pot. The only downside to them, if you can call it that, is that they won't accept friction-fit knobs. You'll need something with set screws.
No pots do anything for tone. They're just variable resistors with either linear or logarithmic (audio) tapered response curves. And as far as guitars are concerned, caps are caps, don't let anybody fool you.
No pots do anything for tone. They're just variable resistors with either linear or logarithmic (audio) tapered response curves. And as far as guitars are concerned, caps are caps, don't let anybody fool you.
Patrick from Davis
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Cagey said:
I disagree with this statement. Ceramic caps are nothing, sonically, like film or vintage caps. They ARE cheap, but they are not the same as film caps. Also Mica caps can be, "Too Clean," although generally not produced in values for guitar tone knob purposes. But to say that all caps are equal is just wrong.
Patrick
Doughboy
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So, are my good old Warmoth bougth caps good enough? I have no problem spending more dough if something does actuallyimprove tone. But I don't want to be like the schmuck who spends $900 for a set of Tom Homes PUs where he could've spent $140 for a set of Dimarzio 36th Anniversary set that sound the same.
Patrick from Davis
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The difference between a ceramic cap and a film cap is possibly a buck. If you want to be vintage correct, like the builds Tonar does, the Luxe caps will satisfy that for an increased price. Cagey believes that they do not have an effect, but there is ample evidence in the music industry of using better caps for better sound. Not to mention what your ears say. For less than the price of a set of strings, you can determine for yourself whether or not it is worth it. I believe that it is, to a point. Others disagree.
Patrick
Patrick
Tonar8352
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I suggest that you try out the RS 280K super pot for volume and the 250K's for your tone pots along with the Lux cap and see for yourself. I will not use anything else. The pots have the best taper of any I have used and the caps are not as harsh as others I have used including 1963 NOS ceramic disk's. I just pulled a NOS ceramic disc out of a Strat and replace it with the LUX. Much better!!!
Cagey
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Patrick from Davis said:
The difference between a ceramic cap and a film cap is it's working voltage and packaging. And yes, cost.
There is absolutely no evidence in the music industry of using better caps for better sound. There are a great deal of baseless conjectures and emotional arguments, but that's it. Of course, your ears will tell you what you want them to. Oddly enough, the more you pay, the better things will sound. Go figure. Hint: the power of suggestion is tremendous.
Capacitors don't have a "tone". They have a reactance value (measured in microfarads) and a working voltage (measured in DC volts). Everything else is packaging.
The capacitance changes based on the area of the plates. The working voltage will change depending on the dielectric strength of its plate separator. Those materials can be many things, and the choice of which to use for a given rating dictates size and packaging.
Now, it is possible for capacitors to have other effects on a circuit besides pure capacitive reactance. For instance, the leads and the plates may introduce some resistance into the circuit. But, we're talking micro-ohms. Depending on the packaging, it's also possible to introduce some inductive reactance. Again, very, very small amounts. So, in some circuits the choice between a flat package and an axial one can make a difference in performance. But, with the values we're talking about, it's only an issue in circuits that operate in the megahertz range and above, where microwaves live. At the millivolts and audio frequencies that exist in a guitar, those differences can be said to not exist at all.
Where most people hear differences between caps is due to manufacturing tolerances, which are notoriously wide in capacitors.
So, to make a long story short, the $.50 cent low voltage ceramic cap is all you need and it'll react exactly the same as the $20 high voltage oiled paper part as long as both of them are of the exact same capacitance and you don't exceed their working voltage, which in a guitar would be all but impossible.
Superlizard
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:icon_scratch:
All RS Guitarworks sells is old junk... who wants old junk when you could buy new junk? :toothy10:
But seriously folks - I myself have a hankerin' to grab some Luxe caps myself; got a few guitars that
could use 'em.
All RS Guitarworks sells is old junk... who wants old junk when you could buy new junk? :toothy10:
But seriously folks - I myself have a hankerin' to grab some Luxe caps myself; got a few guitars that
could use 'em.
Superlizard
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Doughboy said:
I'll agree with the $900 price for Holmes pickups being beyond ridiculous... but I cannot agree with any DiMarzio bucker coming close to a Holmes tone-wise.
Superlizard
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Patrick from Davis said:
Agree - I could've used (what I term "smooth"; "too clean") mica caps in my JTM45 PTP build, but I chose ceramic for extra "crunch" on the treble.
Cagey
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He set it up nice, but didn't go far enough. You would have to get rid of the human variable, and also know what the actual capacitance value was of those capacitors for that test to mean anything.
What's printed on the outside of the part is just an indication of the range it should be in, not the actual value. In fact, it would be somewhat unusual to get a .022uf part that was actually .022uf. A .022 cap can be anywhere between .0176uf and .0264uf if it's a 20% part, which is quite common, and the older parts are usually worse (wider tolerance). The miniscule differences you could hear from one cap to the next in that exercise is due to differences in signal source and tolerance variation in the parts, not capacitor construction material.
Of course, if you want to pay more, you can get parts that have been binned to tighter tolerances. But, for guitar it's not worth it. You'd never know the difference unless you were replacing an existing part. It wouldn't sound any better, it would just have a different frequency response at a given pot setting. Move the pot a hair in one direction or the other, and it would be the same.
What's printed on the outside of the part is just an indication of the range it should be in, not the actual value. In fact, it would be somewhat unusual to get a .022uf part that was actually .022uf. A .022 cap can be anywhere between .0176uf and .0264uf if it's a 20% part, which is quite common, and the older parts are usually worse (wider tolerance). The miniscule differences you could hear from one cap to the next in that exercise is due to differences in signal source and tolerance variation in the parts, not capacitor construction material.
Of course, if you want to pay more, you can get parts that have been binned to tighter tolerances. But, for guitar it's not worth it. You'd never know the difference unless you were replacing an existing part. It wouldn't sound any better, it would just have a different frequency response at a given pot setting. Move the pot a hair in one direction or the other, and it would be the same.
Doughboy
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I'm with Cagey here. I think it's a fun hobby & a great way to spend your time if you're an audiophile & love tinkering. But for me, as I get older, I just want a good guitar, a good amp & time to play & get better. Spending time obsessing over pots, cables, which batteries are best etc are too anal for me at this point. Maybe when I was 16, but not now.
mayfly
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for guitar tone pot application, Cagey is 100% correct. No big voltages, frequency in the audio spectrum; any cap will likely do.
Having said that, for different applications, currents, working voltages, and frequency spectrums, makes a difference. Especially at GHz rates. When you start talking about digital circuits up in that range, you have to be careful. Actually, sometimes there is no correct cap, and you have to use two or more different types to get the affect that you are looking for.
But a guitar tone pot circuit is not anywhere near so demanding.
Having said that, for different applications, currents, working voltages, and frequency spectrums, makes a difference. Especially at GHz rates. When you start talking about digital circuits up in that range, you have to be careful. Actually, sometimes there is no correct cap, and you have to use two or more different types to get the affect that you are looking for.
But a guitar tone pot circuit is not anywhere near so demanding.
Patrick from Davis
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Cagey you make a persuasive argument, but the difference is noticeable. Also, In the world of recording, there is lots of evidence for using film caps rather than ceramics for better sound purposes. In every step of the recording way. You can argue that the ceramic cap should behave the same way, but people pick the products with film caps when they know no better. Even in products that are identical, except parts have been changed/upgraded. Notably the caps. There is a similar argument with word clocks in AD or DA encoding/decoding in recording that a clock is a clock is a clock. But, it simply doesn't work that way when you compare the two. Better quality clocks sound Much better. The ceramics, to borrow what Tonar said, sound harsh. To me after replacing the ceramic cap in the guitar it was easier to control with the tone knob as well, as in the knob didn't have an on/of type zone for the high freq roll off. It worked like it was supposed to and was adjustable. What I have not seen is someone do a sweep of frequencies with the different makes of capacitors, using the same set up, watch with a scope, and see if they do behave the same. You can measure everything there, frequencies, leakage, harmonics, whatever floats your boat. Hell, better yet, make it the tone circuit of the guitar in the test. You make a good point that the caps are not always what is printed on them, but it was an undeniably obvious difference in the guitars, yes guitars, plural, that I changed them in. And when talking about a waste in money, as I mentioned, the difference in price is minor. Maybe not for the paper in oil, but the rest of them is is tiny with respect to the overall guitar.
I am curious if you have changed the cap in one of your guitars to try this. I am skeptical of most things, but this one won me over.
Patrick
I am curious if you have changed the cap in one of your guitars to try this. I am skeptical of most things, but this one won me over.
Patrick
Cagey
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I've never changed one specifically to change the tone, since that would be pointless, but I have changed lots of them. Usually, it was to replace a broken/burnt/inconvenient one, and I'd just grab whatever I had laying around. Mica, polyester, mylar film, oiled paper, ceramic, etc. Never cared what they were made of or what they cost. If it was close to the right value and fit in the space available, it was fair game. It's the capacitive reactance in concert with the resistor (pot) that sets the frequency response, and that's it, so that's all I was ever concerned with.
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