"dead" strings

[Picklemitts]

I'm having a problem with my high E and B strings.  They won't sustain like the other strings do.  There is a very subtle buzz, and they also sound like they're slightly palm-muted.  They just wont ring out like a bell, in other words.

It is not caused by high frets or a bowed neck.  I got all of that sorted out and eliminated as a possibility.  I thought maybe the string tree placement was pulling the strings over the nut at a funky angle, but I can't make it go away by changing the string angle.  Another possibility is that the nut slots are too deep.  The strings are sitting where the top of the string is about flush with the top of the nut - noticably deeper than any of my other guitars.  It's almost like it was cut for a larger string gauge.  It could have something to do with the saddles, too.

Any ideas on how to troubleshoot this?  The last couple of problems, which I first thought were manufacturing tolerance problems, turned out to be caused by my impatience when setting it up.  I'm sure this will be no different!

 

[AutoBat]

Most likely it's the nut. Does it only sound bad on open notes but fine on fretted?

 

[Jusatele]

who did the setup on the guitar once it was finished?

 

[Cagey]

The strings could still be pulled over the nut at a funky angle, even after messing with the useless tree(s). The pertinent point is where they leave the nut to the vibrating length. The same thing can happen at the bridge, depending on what kind of saddles you have. TOM bridges are notorious for that sort of thing, for instance. The pressure point has to be at the exit end of either fulcrum point.

There's a very good explanation of how that should be here.

 

[Picklemitts]

who did the setup on the guitar once it was finished?

I "roughed it in".  Setup is not yet dialed in just right.  I'm busy at work and quite lazy at home, and initial setup has proven to be a much different animal than tweaking an existing factory setup.  I've done plenty of tweaks to my other guitars, with very good results.  But I've never had to file slots in a nut or do the initial tightening on a 2-screw truss rod where I can't access the main adjustment nut while the neck is mounted.

I believe this is happening at the nut.  Which is above my paygrade to fix.  I will try to locate someone local who can fix it.

 

[fdesalvo]

What they said - but also check the saddles - a poorly cut saddle will have those symptoms, as well.  You can probably hear where the string is rattling.

 

[erogenousjones17]

I've got a similar problem on my Strat. The high E sounds slightly damped, wth both fretted and open notes. I suspect it's the nut (it was the first time I cut one myself). So what's the fix? Does it mean the slot's too wide or too tight?

 

[Cagey]

It usually means the exit end of the nut where the string leads out to the fretboard is slightly lower than the point where the string actually contacts the nut, or the same situation can occur at the bridge saddle. Sounds like a saddle issue for you. Might not even be visible without magnification. Back up the thread a bit, I've got a link to a tutorial on nut slots that has drawings of an ideal slot/saddle geometry.

 

[erogenousjones17]

Interesting link, Cagey. Thanks. Guess I should take a look at that, though I almost hate to. It's one of those niggly little things, rather quite minor, that I'd hate to make worse with my ham-fisted tinkering. :laughing7:

But the Strat could use a tune-up...

 

[Cagey]

I wouldn't call it "minor" if you can hear it. Something like that would aggravate the hell out of me.

If you don't feel like messing with it or are worried you'll make it worse, pro setups usually aren't terribly expensive unless you live in an area with little competition. Although, just because somebody advertises that they do setups doesn't mean they do a good job. For instance, I've seen/heard so many horror stories about what Guitar Center turns out that I wonder if Stephen King might get some ideas for a new book there. So, don't just drop your fiddle off somewhere. Talk to them and see if you can get a feel for the kind of work they do.

 

[erogenousjones17]

Although, just because somebody advertises that they do setups doesn't mean they do a good job.

Welcome to my town. I took my archtop to one place where they decided the action was too high and proceeded to sand off the bottom of the nut until the strings rested on the first fret. Seriously, three open strings were completely dead. Obviously we don't go there anymore.  :icon_biggrin:

There's another place I discovered a bit later that's an actual, factual lutherie shop, i.e., they actually build guitars there. Check out their site: http://lutheriemoustache.com/modelesEn.html. That's where I take go when I need a pro--they do good work, are very open and will explain things so that you don't feel like you're getting screwed over. Plus they have all sorts of odd, "vintage" stuff for sale (the sort of thing that's fun to look at, if not to own), not to mention their own fancy acoustics.

What I've always thought would be really neat would be a chance to sit down with a real tech and actually learn how to do things the right way. Or, failing that, a chance to watch one work.

 

[Cagey]

That's an interesting shop you've found there. I would say you could trust them to do a proper job <grin>

 

[stubhead]

Well I ought to start charging the guy a commission but if everyone ran out and just bought Dan Erlewine's "Guitar Player Repair Guide" they would not only have the oppo to learn how to do it all themselves thereby saving themselves thousands of dollars (over their lives) , but at the very least you would know exactly how to rate a "guitar tech" who starts spouting foolishness and/or wisdom. Thereby saving yourselves some aggro, at least. The key to proper nut and fret work is being able to think in really small increments, which as you get older more and more translates into "better magnification tools."

But all the nifty vision (& fret!) toys in the world can't help until your brain starts to operate in thousandths of an inch. Look at your high E string, it's 10 1/1000 of an inch. Half of it is 5 thousandths, a third of it is 3 thousandths, and the difference - 2/1000th of an inch - is where your head needs to be. The string needs to go through a slot which doesn't allow any portion of the string to have anything to (rudely) vibrate against, because of the way it's cut. And the way it's cut is a result of how it was planned it to be following the application of the tools. And a string .010" only needs a slot wall FUBAR of .002" to vibrate against.... see? :laughing3:

A lot of people don't like tiny little shit - hell, I don't like it, but I'm not going to pay money to somebody who'd probably zoink it anyway, and the good ones don't work for peanut butter & kitty litter, which is what I can pay them, so....

http://www.amazon.com/The-Guitar-Player-Repair-Guide/dp/0879309210/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1333109931&sr=8-1

This is what's known as a "Well, duh moment."

 

[erogenousjones17]

Believe it or not, I do have Mr. Erlewine's book. I find it to be especially useful for set-ups (which way do you turn the bass-side tuners on a 3x3 headstock...?) and other minor adjustments. But for me, tricky hands-on stuff is much easier to learn by watching someone than by reading someone, so it would be really nice to have an actual person show me how to do the more advanced techniques, such as nut shaping.

 

[Cagey]

Sometimes, you need to be thrown into the deep end of the pool.

Surely you know someone with a guitar that needs a new nut. That would include about 79.32% of all guitar players who own guitars. Buy some blanks and the tools, and offer to do theirs for free. Might even take you two or three tries, but you'll get it. Worst case, you call it a bad job and throw $25 at a pro to do it right. Your friend is happy, and you've learned some valuable lessons. Then, do it again with someone else. At some point, you will become a shaper of nuts and a cutter of slots par excellence. Then, you too can earn minimum wage working on guitars.

 

[erogenousjones17]

Then, you too can earn minimum wage working on guitars.

That's the dream, innit?  :icon_jokercolor:

I've got the tools and have shaped a couple of nuts already, but only for my own guitars. Gotta say it was an eye-opener when I first replaced the cheap plastic nut on my Strat with a bone nut I spent all day making. "What do you know--there is a difference!"  :icon_biggrin:

 

[Cagey]

I've got the tools and have shaped a couple of nuts already, but only for my own guitars. Gotta say it was an eye-opener when I first replaced the cheap plastic nut on my Strat with a bone nut I spent all day making. "What do you know--there is a difference!"  :icon_biggrin:

Absolutely. Material matters, but so does careful attention to detail. That's why Leo came up with string trees. Production rates were too high to spend a lot of time working nuts, so just give 'em a lick and a promise then force the strings to stay in place with a crude 10 cent clamp. Of course, it makes it tuning a bit problematic, but back then the bridges were more of contributor to that problem than the trees were, so it was an acceptable compromise.