Burst finish questions - dye/stain and swamp ash

[Steve St.Laurent]

Looking at doing my first finish on a body and need some input.  First I'm open to suggestions on specific products - have been looking at reranch and colortone through stewmac but I'm 100% open to others.  This is the finish I'm looking for:

It's a swamp ash body and I know I'll need to fill it and seal it but I'm unsure of the order of operations.  Also, I'd like for the grain to really pop so I'd like to either dye or paint it black and then sand it before the red dye/stain.  I do have an air compressor and spray guns, etc so equipment is not an issue.  As it's going to be a travel guitar I'd prefer to go with a poly finish (as opposed to nitro) for durability but again I'm open.  I've searched around and haven't found real clear answers.

So some of the questions are:

Do I apply sealer first?

Do I apply filler first, next after the sealer, after the black (after sanding), or after the red?

If the filler isn't clear (I see some are) - won't that cover up the black grain?  So am I looking for clear?

Dye, stain, or paint to lay down the initial black to accentuate the grain?

Dye or stain for the red?

Should the red go down before the filler - then again after maybe?

I know how to do the black burst (from the retrench site) and I plan on doing that the very last thing before I apply the poly (or nitro).

How about compatibility of products?

Thanks in advance for the advice.  I know if I do this out of order I'm going to create a LOT more work for myself and I'd rather avoid that and I trust the folks here more than anywhere else.

Thanks,
Steve

 

[bagman67]

There are a lot of ways to approach this that will get you where you want to be.


I think I would approach it this way:


1.  Prep the surface by sanding to 220


2.  Wet it thoroughly and sand again to "de-whisker"; repeat as necessary, but you want the grain to raise a tad at step three so the dye will penetrate.  In other words, you're not here to burnish the wood, just to get it reasonably smooth.


3.  Wet it again, and dye liberally with a water-based General FInishes dye (I've had good luck with them on ash). 


4.  Allow to dry and sand again (not aggressively) to de-whisker.  If you burn through your color to bare wood, touch up.



5.  Seal with shellac.


6.  Fill with black-tinted grain filler.  I have had good luck tinting Timbermate neutral with black Mixol pigment, and I have also had good luck using the ebony Timbermate.


7.  Start building a few coats of your clearcoat, sanding to 320 in between.


8.  Apply your burst.


9.  Add more clearcoat.


10.  Add more clearcoat.


11.  Guess what?  Add more clearcoat.


12.  Let it hang for a month.


13.  There is no 13.


14.  Wet sand, de-swirl, buff to taste.




All of the above assumes you'll be using lacquer.  I have not tried any of this with poly, but you may get satisfactory results that way, too.  I think you can top poly with lacquer, but not the other way around - but as long as you're starting from scratch, might as well make life easier by being consistent throughout the process.


If you want the grain to be more pronounced, you can dye the top black, sand back aggressively, and still use black grain filler after dye and seal.  That's what I did here:

I did the entire top with India ink, sanded back, dyed with orange General Finishes water-based, shellacked, filled with ebony Timbermate, Deft clearcoats x2, then burst, then more clearcoat.

 

[Cagey]

I'm a huge fan of the tutorials at LMII. You may want to read "Finishing Options for Musical Instruments" first.

Once you're through that, if you have the equipment and a brain in your head, you'll probably opt for a lacquer finish. They have an excellent treatment of that subject here. Follow that schedule, and you almost can't fail. But, you have to follow it!

You'll notice if you look around their site, they have no tutorial on poly finishes. Oil, French polish, Lacquer, water-based... no poly. WTF? It's the best finish there is!

Problem is sorta weird. OEMs like poly because it's fast and easy. So... why wouldn't we want the same thing? Because to get set up for it is difficult and expensive. It's very toxic, so you need to figure out how to breathe while you're playing with it. You also need to deal with cleanup. Then, you really want to do the catalyzed version so it cures in a reasonable amount of time, which makes all that worse. Then, even with the catalyzed versions, they don't set up instantly like lacquer nearly does. So, that means you need a hyper-clean but super-ventilated environment. All in all, shooting poly isn't really an option unless you're setting up for a professional situation where you do it all the time. OEMs can do that. Us regular folk? Not so much. It's not a trivial thing.

That's why I always recommend people take advantage of Warmoth's finishing options. They seem expensive, but in reality they're a bargain. It's the most durable finish you can get, it's professionally applied, and success is on them. You can't get anybody to do a lacquer finish for what they'll do a poly finish for, so why mess around?

Of course, that doesn't apply here. You don't have that option. Warmoth doesn't finish other people's stuff. If you really want the poly, I'd suggest you go in search of an auto body shop. Otherwise, I'd resign myself to lacquer. It's not as good as poly, but it's better than anything else, and it's doable.

If you do find a shop that'll do poly, do the grain fill and staining yourself so all you need is the clear coat.