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Bill Lawrence L90s or L500s?

Stew

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I put Bill's noisefree singles in my first Warmoth strat a month or so ago, partly from the positive response of reviews that I'd read but mostly because of the price, and I've got to say these are really great, versatile pickups! I'm not a purist when it comes to pickups ... I like to be able to make my guitar sound "in the style of" whoever it may be rather than having to sound exactly like this or that particular pickup, guitar or player.

I've been looking with interest at Bill's dual rail pickups the L90 and L500. I'm in the early planning stages of a Les Paul build that's shaping up as: a mahogany or korina body with flame maple cap, with ebony or kingwood on a wenge 59 roundback neck. I'd like this guitar to get me in the territory of classic stuff like Led Zep through to more modern stuff like Foo Fighters.

I've read a bit about the pickups including one users thoughts on coil splitting and inner/outer coil combinations at Bill's forum: http://guitarsbyfender.yuku.com/forums/11/Bill-Lawrence-Wilde-Gate
http://guitarsbyfender.yuku.com/reply/48810/Help-with-L-90-wiring-HH-strat#reply-48810

What I'd really like to hear is some first hand experience from other Warmoth owners.

Anyone use these pickups? Whadda ya think L90s or L500s?
 
I have an l500 set in a les Paul. Xl in bridge, l in neck, r in middle.

The l90 is a bit more sweet and vintage than the 500 series, but with the right pots and resistors, you can make a 500 sound like a 90.

In a lester they're very articulate, precise, respond tightly to your playing. You can't say it's got lots of highs or it's got scooped mids, cause that depends on the character of your guitar. They will deliver the tone you make, in conjuction with your guitar.

I'd go with korina over mahogany any time of the week and twice on Sunday.  nicer grain,better looks,broader tone... It's not without reason its one of the favorite tonewoods on this board.

They sound great and will get you definitely in the tonal regions you're aiming for, but consider this.

They are but ugly! I discovered that a jb/fullshred hybrid sounds 99% like the bill Lawrence pickups, but retains a more standard look. You can see a sticky on the Duncan board in the pickup section,regarding hybrid pickups...
 
Well, I don't consider them "ugly" - but then I've been using them for 20 years or so, and I know what they DO... I would call them "unconventional looking", for sure. I actually doubt that a "regular" pickup - a rectangle of metal with six little screws poking through OR a naked humbucker - would be considered "beautiful" or even "attractive" enough to make it to the art museum. Now THIS is ugly:

suckerfish.jpg


As far as pickups go, if I were going to go all judgemental even sweet li'l ol' me might call THIS  ugly:

Ferrofluid_q-tuner.jpg


Meanwhile: Bill Lawrence does something sly and wondrous with the inductance of the L500's so that they are very powerful (XL) yet have none of the midrangey muddiness of a regular high-powered humbucker, nor any problem with magnetic string pull. They sometimes get called "trebly" because people plug them into a rig idealized for "normal" mushbuckers and the Lawrences actually have treble response! And bass, and midrange too! Because of their power they can also drive the preamp section (or yer winkly little toy pedals) way beyond what is expected of a "normal" pickup.

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So your git's pumping out loud,  clean POWER that's kinda flat - not flat bad-wise, flat EQuilly-wise. That's where your guitar wiring comes in - by tweakiing your guitar's resistance and tonal range with different pots, caps & resistors, you can shape the frequency output of the L500 to resemble a lot of different pickups, because you're starting with plenty of every frequency ripping down those little pickup wires. Sort-of unfortunately (cause I don't like his playing) Dimebag Darrell used these pickups to make his amp puke, but they were actually popular with jazz guitarists when they first came out, because they were so clean & wide-spectrum'd.

I have a long-standing personal preference for a rig that starts with plenty of high-end signal and then I roll it back at the end with amp settings and speaker choice, as opposed to an initial guitar signal that has big midrange and wimpy highs, and then try to boost up the treble that isn't there with a treble booster, wah and shrill farty cheap little speakers. You could make the L500 sound like that - that forum you referenced has pages of people using wiring to make an L500 sound "like" lesser, wimpy downstream pickups -  :icon_scratch: - but why you'd want to muffle such clarity, power & beauty is a mystery to me.

FWIW, the people who say things like "that pickup is too trebly!" are the same people who say they never use the guitar's tone controls because "that sucks."

Ahem.

If you turn all the knobs all the way up on your guitar then set your amp to it's grandest ideal, you're only allowing the guitar controls to attenuate that which is grand... yes, YOU. So try setting your neck pickup's volume at 8, tone at 10, the bridge pickup's tone at 6 and volume at 7. And only then idealize your amp; and THEN GAZE DOWN UPON YOUR GUITAR CONTROL KNOBS WITH AWE, LOVE (and even a frisson of FEAR) because guess what, Doodlebits? They actually DO something now.

Imagine - being able to control your tone, volume and overdrive RIGHT FROM YOUR GUITAR.... oh, the genius of it all. :hello2: :occasion14:
What was the question?
 
Michael Bolt-On said:
What was the question?

L-90s or L-500s?  :icon_biggrin:

@Mr Bolt-On: Have you tried the L-90s? If so how do they compare in your opinion? Have you tried coil splitting L-500s or L-90s? Q-filter?

@Orpheo: So Black Korina's the winner then? I was thinking maybe the guitar would be to middle-y with the korina body and wenge neck, but you are the Les Paul King  :icon_thumright:
With the JB/Fullshred hybrid I assume you're swapping coils between the two pickups so one becomes JB/Fullshred (north/south) and one becomes Fullshred/JB (north/south) ... is that correct? That could be pretty interesting with the wiring scheme I'm thinking of ... using a push/pull to swap coils so that the three way selects Neck/Both/Bridge or Inner/Inner+Outer/Outer. Doing this with the hybrid would effectively give a wide JB (outer) and something like a 'middle position' Fullshred (inner) or vice versa. The only things is a set of Bill's pickups would run about the same price as the Fullshred alone! Then I have to do the hybrid thing and I'm not sure I'm confident enough to do that .... hmmmmm  :icon_scratch:

I don't consider Bill's dual rails 'ugly', but there are by no means the prettiest pickups around ... particularly if you're after a more classic look. I could live with the look of either L-90s or L-500s (the 500s probably look a bit more classic) but I'll have to think a lot harder about what finish to match them up with.

Any other thoughts greatly appreciated ...
 
korina doesn't have neccasarily more mids than mahogany, its got other mids. more open, airy, dynamic, bit tighter if pushed harder... it just works better than mahogany, in my opinion. If I were given the choice, I'd go with korina any time of the week, as I've said before ;) even with wenge. the ebony board and maple top will sort it out nicely. \

Ok, hybrid pickups. Its just taking one coil of one pickup and taking one coil of another pickup, and putting them together. Its easier to talk in terms of screw and slugcoil. I prefer the screwcoil of the JB in the bridgeposition and the slug in the neck. for the fullshred it makes no difference, both coils have the hex polepieces, haha.

Pricing is an issue, I agree, but looks and tone are also important. The bill lawrence l500 has pricing and tone working for it, but looks?! no. I hate the look so much that I sometimes even regret buying them. you can't slide a hole-less cover on them too, cause they're sized differently. Not so differently that they won't fit a regular pickuproute, rest assured. but just enough for a cover to NOT fit!

Making hybrids is SO EASY! you unscrew the brass screws, pop off the coil (carefully, so don't use a screwdriver or a knife, just your fingers), find where the pickupleads attach to the 4 conducter cable, unsolder them. rinse and repeat on the other pickup. and then you have 2 unattached coils and 2 baseplates with just 1 coil, a magnet and a spacer perhaps. Swap, solder them together, use a bit of shrinktube or tape, whatever you like, and you're done! If you're not comfortable doing that, use a multimeter to measure the DC of the coils in every step you take. that way your mind will be at ease doing these kind of jobs.

The fun thing is that imho, the BEST neckpickup for metal, is the jb/fullshred hybrid, but it can do jazz just as neat! same goes for the '59/custom (5, custom custom or just custom) hybrid. but THE best neckpickup I've tried is the jazz/59 hybrid, although the JB/jazz hybrid can make a bright guitar sound lush and warm, without mushy.

hybrids, you gotta love 'm.

ps. if you think that hybrids are just strange,hogwash or 'bad because its homebrew'... Dimarzio felt so strongly about 'hybrids' that he patented the whole idea!
 
Orpheo said:
Dimarzio felt so strongly about 'hybrids' that he patented the whole idea!

Side note - yep, and he also patented dual creme bobbins.  That's like me patenting black-handled hammers.
 
SuperLizardLead said:
Orpheo said:
Dimarzio felt so strongly about 'hybrids' that he patented the whole idea!

Side note - yep, and he also patented dual creme bobbins.  That's like me patenting black-handled hammers.
no, the double cream is a trademark, just as magenta pink is trademark'd by T-Mobile.
 
OK - My "#1" is and has been for a decade a "telecaster-shaped" guitar. Warmoth boatneck, quarter-sawn maple with a scalloped ebony fretboard, 1.75" nut width, 6100 frets. This was built before both the side-adjuster and SS frets, I've leveled and crowned the frets four times now - but with scalloping, there's still a lot left... :toothy12: It's on a one-piece swamp ash, x-tra light USA Custom body that started as a rear route but now has a front cover plate too, to accommodate the wiring. The neck pickup is a single Lawrence stacked Strat, I think it's a L290? L280? He's changed the numbers a lot. This pickup goes to a concentric tone/volume pot 500/500, with I think a .033mf capacitor? I spent a long time trying different ones. This then goes to a 3-way pickup selector switch, then down the hatch. The bridge humbucker is the L500XL, wired with a SuperSwitch to give me the front coil, back coil, and both coils in series, parallel and out-of-phase. I used this diagram, the "Five-Tone-tele-mod":
http://www.tdpri.com/wiring5wayStrat.htm

That's to wire a two-single-coil PU guitar; I just used the same diagram for the L500 alone. That switch's output goes to another 500/500 concentric tone/volume knob, which goes to the 3-way, then to the output. I'm pretty sure I have a .022mf cap on that. The neck Strat tone is important to me, call it the "Little Wing" tone if you want, Stevie Ray Vaughan used to live there too. It has to be a Strat PU too, the Telecaster neck PU is smaller and different sounding (though there are now a few makers selling "Strat-toned" tele pickups).  

The L500 is so powerful that when you split it to one coil, it still has a lot of crank, it's like if you had TWO good telecaster bridge pickups right next to each other. Though as I mentioned, when you combine them it doesn't go all mushy like a regular humbucker. The great joy of this setup lies in leaving the the 3-way switch in the middle position, with both pickups on. I tend to leave the neck PU tone all the way up, and the volume around 7-10 depending. Then by working with the volume and tone of the bridge pickup, and switching from single to parallel to series, it can combine with the neck pickup in a rainbow. You've got five different, switchable, power levels from the bridge pickup to blend with the neck PU - plus the knobs! This is somewhat similar to the "outer-coil, inner coil, three coils" switching that Bill Lawrence first invented when he designed the Gibson L6S, and which has since been "borrowed" by Ernie Ball, Paul Reed Smith, Ibanez, Suhr and a bunch of others.*

However, I have more control of the blending of the values and some tone control inside the combinations - I grew up on the Gibson four-knob setup, so it seems sensible to me. It is not simple. When I read about someone who doesn't use the tone and volume controls and instead depends on a bunch of floor boosters and equalizers, oh well... Watch the vids of Jimi Hendrix, Jimmy Page, Eric Johnson, Steve Morse, SRV... they're ALL OVER the knobs. The single best example of the four-knob's potential is on Duane Allman's solo from "In Memory of Elizabeth Reed" on the Allman's "Live at the FIllmore." If you can't hear that, listen harder. "Dark Star"....

I have thought very seriously about another variant for a future build. That would be, a single-coil neck pickup with a tone/volume stack, then a bridge L500 with separate volume controls for each coil, to a "master" tone just for the bridge PU, then to a 3-way. And maybe a phase switch to flip.. one coil? Two switches to flip one bridge coil and the neck PU? I dunno... I have a perfect system right now, it'd be a shame to build a subsequent boner and have to fix it.... But then I had to rewire this one twice to get it perfect, it's the only way to learn. Brian May's guitar rather famously has an on/off switch and a phase switch for each of the three coils, so there's definitely something there.

*(If Bill Lawrence was interested in spending more time in the courtroom and less in his laboratory, he could extract a staggering amount of money from all the people who've "borrowed" from his patents... When Lawrence was working in Dan Armstrong's shops in London and New York, his assistants at varied times were Dan's son Kent Armstrong, and Larry DiMarzio, and Seymour Duncan - think about it. You could argue that Bill Lawrence is a "lousy" marketer, or a poor businessman, but he's doing what he wants - Leo Fender was the same way, which is why he had to leave Fender, then start and leave Music Man, then start G&L. Some people just aren't GREEDY enough... :sad1: They just like to BUILD stuff.)

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P.S. No, I haven't tried the P90's - why bother, when you can have two coils for the price of one... if the "P90 sound" mattered to me, I would try one of Seymour Duncan's triple hybrid things anyway. It's my understanding - correct me if I'm wrong - that the characteristics that make for the essential "P90 sound" also make it really noisy and very prone to going microphonic in a few years, or even with one hard bump. It's called "air in the coils" and if you like it, fine. Jason Lollar has evolved some machinery where he can wind pickups with a very precise amount of tension, and pot them to a very certain degree of, umm, "pottedness?" But the "great P90 sound" only happened in a few of the old ones- the rest shorted out and died, which is why it disappeared from the serious guitarist's touring arsenal, with a very few exceptions like Leslie West. In the early 70's guitarists couldn't rout out their Les Paul Jrs. FAST enough, aaak give me a HUMBUCKER.... etc. I'd rather stick with things that sound good on purpose, not by accident.
 
Hey Stubhead ... the L-90 is not a P90 from what I can gather:
"The L-90 is the more laid back yet sophisticated sibling of the L-500."  http://guitarsbyfender.yuku.com/topic/2979/L-90-vs-L-500-My-Review?page=1

If the L-500s can get me the tone I want I'll probably try them out first ... at $60 each I'd be mad not to! If they don't end up looking right (or they don't give me the tones I want) I might have to investigate the hybrids.

I did some mockups last night and the L500s are lookin' pretty sweet like this ...
 

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Stew said:
Hey Stubhead ... the L-90 is not a P90 from what I can gather:
"The L-90 is the more laid back yet sophisticated sibling of the L-500."  http://guitarsbyfender.yuku.com/topic/2979/L-90-vs-L-500-My-Review?page=1

If the L-500s can get me the tone I want I'll probably try them out first ... at $60 each I'd be mad not to! If they don't end up looking right (or they don't give me the tones I want) I might have to investigate the hybrids.

I did some mockups last night and the L500s are lookin' pretty sweet like this ...

I see, 1 BL is 60$. for me, each one is 60 euro's, and a fullshred is 66 euro's and a jb is 66 euro's, so for me, there's littlee difference in which one I choose :)

It will sound kick ass, let me tell you that. have you considered installing a trem in your guitar, for an even broader palette of tones? a hipshot or wilkinson?
 
OK, I actually went and READ the review in question, well after I posted about it just to be consistent... so the L90 is the first dual-blade Lawrence pickup, with less power but a"cleaner" bass, whatever that would be.... pickups don't distort unless they're failing, so it sounds like it just has less bass and that particular amp can only handle so much? This is confusing to ME at least:

The L-90 is the more laid back yet sophisticated sibling of the L-500. Both are of a magnificent bloodline. They share some of the greatest qualities that a pickup can have but have their own personalities. The differences were few but you could tell the two apart.

Analogies aside, the L-90 was a bit clearer, more transparent and more articulate than the L-500s. The highs were higher and clearer. The mids were slightly clearer, but not much. They also felt scooped a little bit more than in the L-500. The lows were clearer but they weren't as pronounced. The L-500 seemed to have more "oomph" to the notes of the lower strings in the clean channel. However, you could distinguish the notes better with the L-90. Adjusting the bass level on the amp from, for example, 7 to 9 or 10 allowed you to compensate. But the L-500s carried more bass with a little bit more mud. The L-90 was slightly better in the strummed chord department most likely due to the extra highs and cleaner lows.

The L90 was the earlier version, so presumably Mr. Lawrence made some changes to improve it, at least to his standards. I love the details in this review, but without having that specific amp and being familiar with their gain structure, it's hard to say - everything he liked about the L90s could be a result of their lower output, in fact he says he was able to get to the better tones of the L500 by turning up more. Ummm, you could also turn DOWN the L500... or use a L500R or C. One guitar had a LOCKING WHAMMY and the other had a hardtail, but that didn't matter - never does, when comes to tone.

Peavey Delta Blues 210, 30W. It's basically Classic 30 with 10" speakers and tremolo (which I didn't use). The cleans on this amp are very similar to a vintage Fender amp especially with some of the mods I've done on it. This was the test I looked forward to the most. The same differences that were on the 5 watt amp were present here. The L-500 does GREAT on this amp and, at first, I was favoring them over the L-90s. However, after much trial and tribulation, I found that I could dial in the same sounds with the L-90s and get the added benefits of the clarity.

I am very familiar with a Peavey Classic 30 - great, great amp (coincidentally, the old ones are one of Bill Lawrence's favorite circuit designs). But I would never run mine (head) into 10" speakers, presumably Celestions or Jensen "rock 'n' roll" speakers? That amp deserves to run power tubes wide open into some 12" JBL's or Black Widows. Roar... And I'd also turn my guitar down, those pickups do have some teeth, fur and claws when you need 'em. I'd just have to own some L90's to make much out of this. But if any of you guys want to get involved with your opinion of my opinion of this guy's opinion, there's 140 pages full here to delight, entrance, titillate and mystify you! Hopefully the details bloom and the liquids remain creamy, yet sparkle with good separation.
http://guitarsbyfender.yuku.com/forums/11/Bill-Lawrence-Wilde-Gate#.Tfn6ZltuRak

I have to go practice. :hello2:
 
@Orpheo ... yeah price-wise Bill's pickups are much cheaper for me here in Oz. I've had a look at local distributors and JB is around $100 and Fullshred more like $150+! It sucks that the local distributors have to bump the price up so much. That why I went for Bill's pickups on my strat ... I was gonna try Dimarzio Areas but they're almost three times as expensive over here as they are in the states!! I could probably get the SDs from eBay cheaper but I always worry that if I had a problem of some sort I'd have a hard time getting it sorted with an internet business.

@Stubhead ... that's the reason I was asking you guys for reviews in the first place ... its interesting to read these reviews on the net but what do they actually mean ... just one guys opinion ... I was hoping to at least get the opinions of a couple of others from around these parts to throw into the mix  :laughing7:

For what it's worth I found another forum post (myespaul.com) about various Bill Lawrence pickups and their attributes:
http://www.mylespaul.com/forums/pickups/39197-bill-lawrence-pickups-2.html#post727953 ... an interesting read when you need a break from practising  :rock-on:

Like I said I'll probably start with the L-500s and see how they go. Now I just need the perfect body to come up in the showcase ... I don't wanna have to pay $1000+ to have the big W build it for me  :o
 
Stew, The local Australian Distributors do not have to bump the prices, they do so because they know that SD won't allow their retailers in the USA - to elsewhere - to export outside their boundaries & we are stuck dealing with distributors who make a decent profit on each sale - after the retailer has taken his bit.

A factor that raises concerns with buying a pickup from overseas is the cost of shipping. Some retailers from OS will charge an arm and a leg to ship internationally. While the cost of the item might be cheap  the shipping cost might end up costing as much as you paid for the pickup. Plus you have to wait for it to get to you.
 
yeah, it's a lose-lose situation  :sad1: Thank God for the strong Aussie dollar!

FWIW the Bill Lawrence noise-free singles I bought cost $44 each and $30 to ship all three ... had 'em about a week after ordering. Can't complain about that  :icon_thumright:
... and Dimarzio Areas are currently between $100-$150 EACH (quick Google of local supliers)!  :o
 
wow, those dimarzio's are expensive!!!! in the netherlands they're like 200 a set. well, for that kinda money I'd rather have a set of kinman's, van zandt's, or something similar! Although bill lawrence's got the biggest bang for the buck. unfortunately, I don't like singlecoils :D so I'm stuck with humbuckers. besides, a les paul with 3 singlecoils looks just... plain wrong ;)
 
Orpheo said:
wow, those dimarzio's are expensive!!!!

Ahhh ... now you feel my pain  :laughing7: So that's why I ordered the BL singles for my strat. PRICE!

With the L500 @ US$54 and the L90 @ US$60 I figure either of them are a good place to start for humbuckers ... then if I don't like them, even if I can't get a very good resale pirce on them, I haven't lost out too badly. That's the logic behind it anyway ... and I've read enough good reviews to think they might just turn out to be kick ass  :headbang1:
 
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