Another "how can I make this grain pop" post: alder + stain tele

[Major7Sharp11]

Hello all,

Title says it all! It's been hard to find a consensus about staining/dying alder and the best methods based on past posts, so I figured I'd open up the convo, share my experience as a data point, and ask some questions.

I have a beautiful alder tele body for my first build that I wanted to stain to more of a chestnut. Was weighing multiple options for staining vs. dying vs. tinting etc. What I happened to have on me was some Minwax English Chestnut stain and Minwax prestain conditioner, from a desk I just finished (very happy with the color and how it turned out), so I figured I'd get out of research/option-paralysis mode and have a go at it.

The first image is the body (with accompanying neck), entirely unfinished. The second image is after applying the prestain conditioner- this REALLY made the grain pop, to the point that the body almost looks like ash! The third image is after first application of the chestnut stain.

The color, for me, is spot on, and I'm actually pretty pleased with how evenly it took to the top (the back has much more of that characteristic alder splotchiness, even after the conditioner, but I'm not too concerned and rather like the knotty rustic look it has). My question, though, is:

Is there any way I can now get the grain to pop out a bit more, with the stain on it? I was a little weary of trying any of the stain then sand techniques, as some posts said it helps alder and others said it doesn't (and I'd hate to negatively affect the evenness of my stain finish, if I were to mess it up at all). But is that a possibility for getting a bit more of the grain to come through? I could sand back and then reapply the next coat of the same color, or I supposed I could shoot to find a stain that is a few shades lighter.

Otherwise, do you suppose with a coat of stain on it, applying some truoil will still help accentuate the grain? I've seen it generally helps accentuate contrasts. I was originally gonna poly the guitar, so if truoil would help bring some of the same contrast that the prestain brought, I'd do a few coats of truoil and then a final coat or two of wipe on poly. Or, if that's not a good idea, I'd just commit to the tru oil and add more coats.


Any wisdom is greatly appreciated. And to be fair, I already think it looks pretty beautiful with the stain- just interested to see if there's anything I can do to enhance.

 

[PhilHill]

I'm thinking it looks great now. You may not want to temp success too much. And you might find, after you get some kind of clear finish on it, that you have achieved what you want. I say great job, congrats. :headbang:

 

[ragamuffin]

Great grain on there! You could sand back the stain (leaves it in the grain) and stain again, but I think a good finish like tru oil will pop the grain some more anyway.

 

[Rick]

My method of getting grain to pop is to stain twice.  First with a dark color, sand it back, and then with a light different color.  That said Alder's not a wood I would be seeking grain pop.  (I would with maple or swamp ash) What I would do is go for a nice color that shows the grain and then follow up with a clear.  I think you're there.  Of course you can do whatever you want.  Either way it will look good.

 

[Mr. Neutron]

I once ordered an "in-stock" Alder Hybrid body from Warmoth. I wanted Alder because I planned on painting the body, and didn't really care what the grain looked like. The piece I ordered was pretty light in weight, and Alder is typically a "tight-grained" wood that needs no grain filling (simplify my life when I can.....). As far as "interesting grain figuring", I thought it was kinda "meh" from the pic at Warmoth.

When I got the body, I felt their pics didn't do it justice at all (not to bag on the photographer). While not the most interesting grain on the planet, it still looked to good to cover up with paint. So I switched horses in the river, and decided to just do it "natural", rather than paint it.

I went with Minwax's "Natural" tint stain, and Lord, how good that grain looked to me! Looked kinda like Major7Sharp11's second pic. At that point, I felt like it really couldn't look much better, but I couldn't leave it alone, and decided to go with a Tru-Oil finish on the body. I'm glad I did. The Tru-Oil really let the grain show even better. That finish is around 3 yrs. old now, and has actually gotten a bit more amber with time. I like how it looks.

Tru-Oil probably isn't the best finish you can put on a guitar. There really is no "one best finish" for guitars. But Tru-Oil isn't bad. It's easy to put on, fairly durable, can be made to be glossy or satin-y. And it does "Good Things" to wood's grain, I tell ya......

Jimmie

 

[Major7Sharp11]

Wow, thank you all for the words of encouragement as well as the advice. I'm thinking the general consensus here is probably right-- the body is right where it needs to be after a nice even coat of the chestnut, and something like tru oil and/or a clear coat will seal the deal.

Two more questions:

1) I was originally figuring I'd follow through with another light 2nd coat of the chestnut stain, just as a practice that I picked up from researching and building my desk. Does anyone have any reason for/against it, in my case? Makes for a richer color and helps with inconsistencies perhaps? (this would be more applicable for the back of mine rather than the front). Or perhaps, if the color is already pleasing, then no point in doing so?

2) It seems among this forum and others (talkbass, etc.) there is a pretty documented history of successful combos of tru-oil and poly as finishing layers. Anyone here think there would be any detriments to grabbing the visual benefits of Tru-Oil by wiping on 6-10 thin coats, then finish it off with a couple (2-3?) of ultra-protective layers of a wipe-on poly?

 

[Rick]

1) it might not make it richer looking but rather darker with less grain showing thru, but if that’s what you want go for it.  It won’t make it horrible.
2) no issues going fro tru oil to wipe on poly.  Just remember to use thin coats, naphtha will thin it nicely.

 

[Mr. Neutron]

Consider that Tru-Oil will tend to darken it a slight bit immediately, and then some slight bit more as it ages....... Poly will do that also, as well...... If you like it a bit darker, stain away, then smear a finish on it.

Do you have any alder test lumber you can play around with first? I went to a hardwood store in Portland, OR (forget what it was called..... maybe Woodcrafters?) and have bought both alder and ash 
1" X 6"s to "experiment with" before I ever put any stain on my guitar body.....

 

[rauchman]

I have no idea how this will work for alder, but for my swamp ash build I did the following.

Since the grain of swamp ash is porous, I put a coating of sealer on the whole guitar.  However, the sealer doesn't get too deep in the grain.
I then mixed a Keda Dye solution of red, black and brown, and hit the whole guitar with it.  The dye winds up going into the grain only.
I then sand off the sealer.
After that, I then hit the body with colored solution (blue in this case) for the effect I wanted on the body.

I don't have a pic of the pre bluing of body, but you can see the grain lines are darker than normal.

Hope this helps!

and the completed guitar....

 

[Major7Sharp11]

@rauchman - oh man, that looks great! I was stuck in the "ash vs. alder" debate for my first build. I was digging the idea of not having to mess with grain filler this time around, but was still on the fence regardless... then a few alder chambered bodies popped up there on the stock inventory (you see a lot more *alder* chambered teles with all contours and an f hole than you do *ash*, on the stock, for whatever reason) and the decision was made for me.


Just an update: A benefit of some of the "shelter in place" craziness going on in some of the COVID hotspots right now... is having a good excuse to get some tru oil layers in.

Just hit layer 4 on the body (as well as my neck) and am really taken back by how quickly it has built up a glossy finish. I almost feel bad at this point scuffing it back (going for a matte/semi-gloss)

I've been using the good old "coffee filter + thin coat + 24 hours dry time" method. I haven't yet put any abrasive to it between any coats, which I know a lot of people on here do. I've been pretty careful about dust though, and have done some light buffing on little spots with a soft tshirt to try and work out any hairs/dust that do show up.


Current plan on the body is to get about 5-6 layers on, let it cure for a few weeks, scuff back with either Gray or White Scotchbrite. Then move on to a few layers of wipe-on poly for good protective measure (since this will in fact be my main axe). If all goes well, I'll have grabbed all of the visual benefits of tru oil, plus the additional protection of the top layers of poly. So far so good. Pics to come!

 

[Ric Moore]

This sounds really cool. Can’t wait to see a photo of the finished body. I may try a true oil/wipe on poly combo for durability.

 

[Major7Sharp11]

Hello all,

Been awhile since I posted last- I've been super generous with letting my tru oil cure ... I gave it a solid 6 weeks! Even though I was giving a (similarly generous) 24-48hrs in between my coats and felt that I had a pretty "hard" finish at the end of the applications, there is no comparison to what it feels and looks like now. Very pleased, and surprised that the tru oil built up such a gloss in only 6 coats on both the neck and body.

Finally have some pics to share. I'm definitely feeling happy with what the layers of oil did to the grain... everything looks rich and sort of evened-out if that makes sense. It's super hard to capture the "chatoyance" in a still photo, but I was able to grab some of the front/back of the body and some of the headstock on my roasted maple neck right in some direct sunlight to showcase at least some of the glow and "figure popping" that takes place in light.

Now that it's plenty cured, I'll be scuffing both back to a matte. Then for the body, I'll proceed with a few coats of wipe on poly (3, methinks... 4 tops). Of the relatively sparse details on poly-over-truoil in past forum posts that I've come across, I've seemed to pick up a consensus that scuffing it to matte may give the poly a bit more to grip onto, if that makes sense? Hard to say whether or not that's necessary, but I can't imagine it will really harm the process. Regardless, I'll be scuffing out the poly coat at the end to get it to a semi-gloss anyway, as I'm looking for something of a matte or semi on the body.

If anyone has any experience or advice in the "to scuff or not to scuff, before putting wipe on poly on the body" department, feel free to share. Otherwise, I'll be logging some data points for the community with my results!

 

[Rick]

My experience is to do a rub with a paper towel, then put the poly on top.  Once you get to three coats of poly stop.  Reason: After that it's guilding the lily and overruns and other problems can occur.  Once you get the three coats, then spot fix any blemishes.  It takes time.

Another school of thought would have you just stopping where you are ... it looks gorgeous as is.  Dealer's choice.

 

[stratamania]

Why put wipe on poly over it at all?

What will it add or attempt to add?

 

[Major7Sharp11]

Why put wipe on poly over it at all?

What will it add or attempt to add?

My rationale was something like- whereas many would coat a body in 8-9 or so coats of tru oil, I was hoping to get the first few layers on mostly for what the tru oil does visually. Then have the last couple be a few thin layers of oil-based poly, to help add a little more durability (as I understand that tru oil is on the less-durable-to-wear-and-tear side).

You reckon that logic is somewhat sound?

 

[stratamania]

It is somewhat sound...although tru-oil is easily repaired if it needs it. Just something to consider.

 

[Major7Sharp11]

It is somewhat sound...although tru-oil is easily repaired if it needs it. Just something to consider.

Hm, yeah, that is definitely a point worth considering– appreciate the feedback

 

[stratamania]

It is somewhat sound...although tru-oil is easily repaired if it needs it. Just something to consider.

Hm, yeah, that is definitely a point worth considering– appreciate the feedback

Sure, whichever way you go. I look forward to seeing the results.