Another H-S-H wiring thread.

[rockskate4x]

Hey guys, I had an idea to try to simplify the control interface AND expand the tonal abilities of my H-S-H strat. I want to use a push-pull/push-push/mini-toggle to change the tones available to the 5-way super switch.

When the two way switch is in positions one, I want a sort of PRS wiring like this...
1 Bridge humbucker
2 Outer coils of humbuckers together
3 Bridge and neck humbuckers together
4 Inner coils of humbuckers together
5 Neck humbucker

When the two way switch is in position two it'll change to a more stratish wiring...
1 Bridge humbucker (coil tapped)
2 Bridge humbucker (coil tapped) and middle single coil together
3 Middle single coil
4 Middle single coil and neck humbucker (coil tapped) together
5 Neck humbucker (coil tapped)

This plus a just a single master volume and master tone would be the bee's knee, but it's making my head spin trying to think of how the heck I can wire such a beast! Is this wiring job even possible?

 

[tfarny]

One 5-way and one two way switch? I don't see how that exact plan is possible with only the two switches - you are asking the two way to BOTH tap the buckers and turn on / off the middle pup, OH -  AND turn on / off one or the other other of the buckers. Nope can't be done. Maybe think of a scheme where the two-way does the coil tapping, and the 5-way does the rest? I also not that your plan leaves out the possibility of un-tapped buckers and single coil in parallel, which in fact might be one of the better combos depending on your pups.

 

[rockskate4x]

I already have the humbucker + single sounds available with my current setup, and I don't really care for them. Part this plan was to get rid of those and make it easier to get approximations of the strat 2-4 sounds and the tele middle sound. Thanks for the input.

Oh, here's an insane thought! If I get a second five way switch wired to do the second set of sounds, could I toggle between the two 5 ways with the two way switch?

This is sounding overly complicated but it seems more possible than the last idea.

 

[Cagey]

You're asking for some pretty radical wiring changes that simply don't lend themselves easily to switches. If you had a little microcontroller and a pile of DIP relays, you could probably do what you're asking, but then you'd need onboard power, which would almost certainly be a maintenance headache you wouldn't appreciate. Not to mention the need for some custom engineering and software work. Could be expensive. I'd do it, for say, $13,500 <grin>

Back here on Earth, most people find that even 5 choices, like you get on a Strat, is more than enough. You use two or maybe three positions for 98% of what you do. Just because it's possible to get 384 different combinations of pickup wiring doesn't mean you should. Whaddaya gonna do in the middle of a song, consult a reference manual so you can figure out where to set some number of switches to get some obscure tone that isn't different enough from a standard tone to justify its existence right in the middle of song where you have 2 milliseconds to make up your mind and do all that switching? Get a grip.

 

[AGWAN]

while we have this HSH thread

Cagey, I found the perfect sized, perfect "push" resistance maintained switches at radio shack, they look great to.

thing is they're lit up.

with that be an issue when wiring up my Tele?

 

[rockskate4x]

You're asking for some pretty radical wiring changes that simply don't lend themselves easily to switches. If you had a little microcontroller and a pile of DIP relays, you could probably do what you're asking, but then you'd need onboard power, which would almost certainly be a maintenance headache you wouldn't appreciate. Not to mention the need for some custom engineering and software work. Could be expensive. I'd do it, for say, $13,500 <grin>

Back here on Earth, most people find that even 5 choices, like you get on a Strat, is more than enough. You use two or maybe three positions for 98% of what you do. Just because it's possible to get 384 different combinations of pickup wiring doesn't mean you should. Whaddaya gonna do in the middle of a song, consult a reference manual so you can figure out where to set some number of switches to get some obscure tone that isn't different enough from a standard tone to justify its existence right in the middle of song where you have 2 milliseconds to make up your mind and do all that switching? Get a grip.

Cool your jets man, it's not your problem if I want a million tones  :laughing7: And believe it or not, the switching makes sense to me. PRS style switching, or strat style switching, no reference manuel needed. All I wanted to know is if the wiring was possible, and you could have said just said no but you had to lose your lunch all over the keyboard.  :toothy12:

Anyone else want to comment? No more rants please.  :redflag:

 

[Alfang]

Well first off, I'll rant all I want, I often do.

Secondly, keep it simple, most of us here who have tried the fancey wiring, don't get what we hoped for. What you will find is theres one setting that sounds the best, and you will stick with that.  A split or outta phase humbucker hardly ever sounds as good as a real single or a full humbucker.

After much experimenting myself, I have found the ultimate setup to be this:  1 volume knob, no tone controll, and a push/push (volume) to turn on neck pup. oh and a 5 way switch. This gives you all possible combinations between 3 singles,

And lastly, singles have way more character than humbuckers, as humbuckers cancel some of the good tone along with the noise.

 

[Cagey]

Cagey, I found the perfect sized, perfect "push" resistance maintained switches at radio shack, they look great to. thing is they're lit up. with that be an issue when wiring up my Tele?

You'll need to get power from somewhere, so you'll have to make sure the switch's lamps will operate off battery power.

 

[Cagey]

Cool your jets man, it's not your problem if I want a million tones  :laughing7: And believe it or not, the switching makes sense to me. PRS style switching, or strat style switching, no reference manuel needed. All I wanted to know is if the wiring was possible, and you could have said just said no but you had to lose your lunch all over the keyboard.  :toothy12:

I did say no. I just fleshed it out a bit so you wouldn't feel like you were missing out on anything <grin>

 

[AGWAN]

Cagey, I found the perfect sized, perfect "push" resistance maintained switches at radio shack, they look great to. thing is they're lit up. with that be an issue when wiring up my Tele?

You'll need to get power from somewhere, so you'll have to make sure the switch's lamps will operate off battery power.

Okay, stupider question... why isn't the cable going to supply enough power to light those?

 

[Rickgrxbass]

Okay, stupider question... why isn't the cable going to supply enough power to light those?

The cable only transmits the signal from the pickups to the amplifier, which is (i think) only a few microamps at a very low voltage (someone with a better background in electronics will probably correct me here).  There isn't any "active" power running through the cable.  Also, you definitely don't want your signal going through LEDs, as that would introduce some ugly clipping tones.  (Some distortion effects cascade the signal through LEDs intentionally)

Now, someone really clever may be able to rig something up with phantom power and a TRS or XLR cable-- I've heard of running an active bass through such a setup before, but that's probably beyond the scope of what you're trying to do.

Back on topic though, I think a PRS 5-way and a Strat 5-way could be switched with a 2-way switch between them somehow, although at that point you may just be better off having 3-way switches for the 'buckers (on/off/coil-tap) and an on-off switch for the SC.  Sure, it would make for a messier control plate, but it would be just as intuitive in the end.  Some (original) BC Riches and Carvins have a similar setup.

...thank goodness you haven't brought up phase reversal!  :doh:

 

[Cagey]

Okay, stupider question... why isn't the cable going to supply enough power to light those?

Rick's right - there's no power to speak of in a standard guitar's cable. It's there to move the voltage generated by the pickups to the amplifier, and that's very, very small. Millivolts at microamps. Never in a million years are you going to light anything with that. About your only choice is to install batteries, and hope the lamps are low-current LEDs so the batteries last more than a half hour. Or, you could run a custom cable, as he suggested, but it would be a unique thing you'd have to modify your amp and guitar both to be able to use.

 

[AGWAN]

thanks guys!

I hope I can wire them without the lights.

 

[bob7point7]

Cagey's response about what it would take to do the switching you asked for is right pretty much right on. (Although if you went to an engineering campus I bet you could find an undergrad to create a circuit for you for much less than $13,500.  :toothy12: )

I understand what you were trying to do, but it's just not feasible. What sounds are most important? Do you really need both inner coils? PRS only has that option on their 24 fret guitars where the 2 coils are about the same distance apart as 2 strat pickups. You already have a middle pickup to get the quack sounds, so it seems like the inner coil sound wouldn't be very useful. I understand that you want humbucker sounds, the tele middle position, and the strat notch positions. How much do you care about having the middle pickup by itself? Single coil neck and bridge sounds? How about both full humbuckers together? If we can understand whic sounds you really want, we can provide options for what you CAN do rather than just telling you what you CAN'T.

Good luck,
-Bobbie

 

[tfarny]

I agree - use a push pull to do one thing - send one or both pickups into coil tapped mode, out of phase, something. Also pick any 5 combos that are going to be distinct and useful, get a stew mac mega switch and someone can go to town.

Example
1. neck normal
2. neck and bridge series out of phase (depending on the pickups, this can produce a great funky auto-wah type tone. much better than parallel out of phase).
3. middle by itself
4. neck and bridge parallel
5. bridge normal

Use a push pull to put the middle pickup on, giving you nine total combos. Or use the push pull to split the buckers, also giving you nine total combos. that is a ton of tones and most of the usable stuff.

 

[rockskate4x]

Thanks tfarny! That is actually pretty close to what I was going for. The pickup on switches are a good idea. I'm thinking that can be modified to get the sounds I want FOR SURE (there were some extras in my original idea)...

bridge hum
bridge tapped
bridge tapped + middle (approximates strat 2 sound)
bridge tapped + neck tapped (approximates tele middle sound)
middle
middle + neck tapped (approximates strat 4 sound)
neck tapped
neck hum

I will have the capacity for two miniswitches (in push pull or push push form) and a blade switch without modifying the pickguard, so here is my new idea...

the blade switch will have
1 bridge hum
2 bridge tapped
3 middle
4 neck tapped
5 neck hum

one middle pickup on switch to add my strat 2 and 4 sounds.
one tapped neck pickup on switch to add my tele middle sound.

That at least is how i figure to manage the sounds at this point, but there's gotta be a million other ways to skin this cat so I'm open to suggestions.

 

[swarfrat]

I dunno why I got the bug for this, but I haven't seen a 4P5T arrangement for this HSH setup.

Neck HB series
Neck HB parallel + middle
middle (stacked single)
Bridge HB parallel + middle
Bridge HB series

All 5 positions hum cancelling, With a DPST switch to convert Pos 1 & 5 to parallel rather than series.
Haven't tried it, it's just been tying up portions of my brain I need for other stuff.

 

[rockskate4x]

That's pretty good if your ok with parallel sounds. I tried them before and I didn't like them so much. I thought it sounded pretty weak, but it could've just been the pickups (JB Jazz). I have taps on them instead now and I like that much better, even with the hum!

 

[rockskate4x]

oh right, i never let you all know what my final H-S-H game plan is gonna be. I saw the video (posted below) and the ones following it of Guthrie Govan explaining the wiring on his suhr guitar. Using an "E model" 5-way switch from stew mac I can get something pretty similar...

1. Bridge series
2. Bridge tapped + Middle single (hum canceling strat sound)
3. Neck + Bridge outer coils only (hum canceling tele sound)
4. Middle single + Neck tapped (hum canceling strat sound)
5. Neck series

I may also have individual taps for the 1 and 5 positions.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lw_uad6s0CQ