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A newbie question about a baritone/longer scale neck

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NeXuS

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Hello, my name is Itamar and I'm new to this forum.
I have a newbie question about baritones that I coudn't find an answer and here it is,
Longer scale increases tension. Heavier strings also increase tension. Then why the hell does every manufacturer ship their baritones with heavy strings? (i.e. LP baritone with a 28" scale and .60-.something tuned to C). I must be missing something. Wouldn't it be logical to put lighter gauge strings?
 
Well, my understanding of it is that a baritone neck is usually tuned lower than a normal guitar, in between bass and guitar range to be exact. (If I remember correctly it's one octave below standard guitar tuning. Can someone confirm this?) This lower tuning would lower the tension.
 
Short answer: it's tuned lower - usually BEADF#B.
(@Shadow - Bass is an octave below guitar, baritone is a fourth below standard guitar, a fifth above bass)

Long answer:

There are three things that determine the pitch of a string: the mass (gauge), the tension, and the length (scale).

If you keep length and tension the same, then:
More mass = lower pitch, less mass = higher pitch.

If you keep mass and tension the same, then:
More length = lower pitch, less length = higher pitch.

If you keep length and mass the same, then:
More tension = higher pitch, less tension = lower pitch.

Now, if you want the same pitch, and you adjust one part, you have to adjust the other part as well. So if you want to keep the same tuning, but you go to a heavier gauge (more mass = lower pitch), you have to bring the pitch back up - for example, by tightening the string.  If you use a longer scale neck (more length = lower pitch) but want to keep the pitch the same, you have to bring the pitch back up - again, tightening the string.

The difference with a baritone guitar, is that you're not using the same pitch. A baritone guitar is tuned down usually a fourth from typical guitar tuning - BEADF#B, or something like that. So you can add mass (heavier gauge), and length (longer neck) and still not have to increase the tension, because that lowers the pitch enough to get to Baritone tuning.
 
Well then why all of the baritone guitar sets are 0.012-0.060 (or in that range, ernie ball's baritone 6th string is 0.072!), I would use this gauge to tune to B or A on a regular 25.5 scale, on a longer scale the tension would be just too tight and if someone desires it he can just put thicker strings on a regular 25.5.
The only logic thing that I can think of is that on a longer scale you can put thinner strings for the same pitch and tension, and thus get a more tight and less muddy bass. for example, on a regular length and standard tuning most people use 9s or 10s, on a longer scale length you can put 8s or even 7s and get the same pitch and tension, but you would get a different tone i guess, can anyone confirm this?
 
NQbass7 said:
Short answer: it's tuned lower - usually BEADF#B.
(@Shadow - Bass is an octave below guitar, baritone is a fourth below standard guitar, a fifth above bass)
Click to expand...

:doh:

Oops, I reversed that in my head. Sorry for any confusion I caused there...
 
Welcome aboard nexus! From where are you? Your name sounds damn portuguese to me...

You can use light strings, but will lose mass on the tone... The low tuned guitar that I most like the tone is from Zakk Wylde, he uses .060" on Db and .070" on B and plays on 24.75" scale... Can think at all a 28.5" scale will be muddy, in deed will be very quacky for my taste...
I think NQBass is correct, it's both length and string gauge increase to have the same playability and feel as on E with .010"... Go for it, if it ain't broke, don't try to fix...
 
Hello fernandoesteves =], I'm from Israel, not so far away lol
and what does zakk wylde tune to with this gauge?
I'm asking this cuz I'm gonna buy a new guitar for an E or Eb standard and I've been thinking how would a 28 5/8 scale and lighter gauge strings would sound like (possibly 8s or even 7s).

Generally, I want it to be tight and have a lot of attack (for heavy thrash metal like kreator)
 
NeXuS said:
for example, on a regular length and standard tuning most people use 9s or 10s, on a longer scale length you can put 8s or even 7s and get the same pitch and tension, but you would get a different tone i guess, can anyone confirm this?
Click to expand...

If you went to a longer length (which would lower the pitch normally) but still wanted the same pitch (standard tuning), you'd have to bring the pitch back up somehow - either raise the tension, or use smaller strings. If you also want to keep the tension the same, then you'd have to use smaller strings. I'm not sure how light of a gauge you'd need to play a baritone neck in standard tuning.

I wouldn't recommend doing standard tuning on a baritone neck. You'd either have to do some ridiculous tension on it, or use really light-gauge strings.
 
So I decided to see if my qualitative guesses had any quantitative answers behind them, and I decided I may have been wrong. I did some research, using this table: http://www.daddario.com/upload/tension_chart_13934.pdf
and scale lengths of 25.5 and 28, and a formula from here:
http://www.noyceguitars.com/Technotes/Articles/T3.html

Here's what I came up with for some average tension/string numbers. (Units are in poundals if you care, but it's all relative anyway.)
25.5" scale, standard tuning, set of 10's - 555
25.5" scale, standard tuning, set of 8's - 378
28" scale, baritone tuning, set of 13's - 670
28" scale, baritone tuning, set of 8's - 256
28" scale, standard tuning, set of 8's - 456
28" scale, standard tuning, set of 10's - 670

Now, I wouldn't recommend trusting me on this - I may have done something wrong here, or there may be other factors in play. If you do want to do this, it might be better to talk to an expert to make sure you don't damage a neck or something. But it looks like on a baritone neck, using 13's in baritone tuning is about the same tension as using 10's in standard tuning. So you might be able to do that.

Sidenote - what I did to calculate these:
Calculated the tension on each of the six strings using fundamental frequency in Hz, scale length in inches, and mass per unit length of a particular gauge string (from the table linked above) in lb/in. Then I averaged the six together to get the numbers I put above.
 
Poundals? Really? I would have picked BTUs or perhaps Furlongs per Fortnight, so as to be more relevant <grin>
 
I had to look it up. I knew what a slug was, which puts me in a very tiny circle of people relatively speaking, and I'd never heard of poundals. Talk about a solution to a non-problem... Pound is a unit of force, Slugs are mass. It's been that way in the English system of measure for a loooong time.

That said, I've done the numbers before. 28 5/8  = 2 more frets of 25.5, and is about a string gauge difference.
 
Poundals because that's what it comes out to if you just multiply everything together. The table I had was in lb/in for mass/len of the string, and scale was in inches, so I just multiplied, and then divided by 12 at the end to get ft. Turns out a ft*lb/s^2 is called a poundal.  :dontknow:
 
Well, if you are getting the tone you like out of standard strings, at a standard scale length, in B to B tuning, then you don't really have any use for a baritone. Personally that setup would feel and sound terrible to me - the strings need a decent amount of tension to play and feel right to me. The added scale length is, however, LESS of a factor in increased tension than the increased string size - Warmoth's baritone scale actually only drops the tuning down one full step, if keeping everything else constant - tuning and string gauge.

I have played with a few baritone string gauges and I think the Ernie Ball setup, with the HUGE low string, is the best, because I can actually tune A to A if I want to and it still feels decent. B to B feels and sound nice and solid like a bass. Your experience may be different - I'm looking for clean tones and long, ringing natural sustain.
 
Thats because poundals was invented by people confused about mass and force, and the common usage of pound to mean 1/32.2 slugs of mass. So they invented a new unit for pound-mass and called pound-force poundals.  Solution in search of a problem.
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yb_MzIzznXM

Baritone tuned to low B using 008 to 038 gauge strings on a 38 inch scale for the ultimate Baritone tone imho!
 
 
There's a little bit of misinformation in this thread. Just to clarify, and speaking as a baritone player...

Going to a longer scale length will give you a snappier, chimier tone. Snappy, twangy on the low strings, chimey on the highs, sort of sitar-sounding after a point. In that sense it's brighter, because it has more articulation. Think of the difference between 3rd fret on one string and 8th fret on the next. That's like the difference between a standard and baritone scale guitar.

If you tune much lower than B you can get a bit muddy or dark sounding on the low string on a standard scale guitar. You may notice, and if you do, a longer scale length will make it sound more balanced.

And after a certain point, the only way to increase tension on the low string is to increase scale length.

Baritone = more articulate, snappy tone. So a baritone guitar tuned to standard will have that baritone snap to it. Should work well for a little bit of a distinctive thrash metal sound. Bear in mind that baritone 8 string players are already playing 6 strings +2 so it's not like it hasn't been done before. It'll feel different and sound a bit different but it's not necessarily a whole world of sonic difference.
 
I always considered doing the baritone thing for tuning an octave below standard as a hybrid guitar/bass, would a bass 6 be better suited for this kind of idea seeing how the baritone is built to tune in fourths?
 
I have a baritone tele strung up with 12's on it and I think it feeles like 10's in A440, I'd actually like to increase them to .13's for more snap in the low end.
 
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